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M-16 vs AK
Tanker25
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 04:26 PM UTC
trip lang guys. lets here it

I'll go with AK! he he he
cbrain21
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 04:45 PM UTC
Kalashnikov din.
GIBeregovoy
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 04:49 PM UTC
Here we go again!!!!

For references to my above comment, search this forum for the assault rifle debates between me and Fritz. It was made last year.

EDIT

Never mind. Here are the links: https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/21266&page=1

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/12721&page=1

I still standby on my opinion.
shonen_red
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 07:20 PM UTC
OMG! Here we go again...
mondo
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 07:29 PM UTC
I spoke with a Lebanese Christian who fought in their civil war. I asked him how good the AK was. For a such big and burly guy (1.8m some 80kg.) he actually didn't like the AK. He said it had such bad recoil action. I did not confirm if it was Chinese made or Soviet. Surprisingly he liked the M16 better. Probably it was because the Americans supported the Israelis. Then the Israelis in turn supported the Christians and Druzes of Lebananon and so their weapons reflected this support. He said that there were a lot of FALs going on around there too.

I then spoke to a Yemeni who of course loved his AK more than his wife and considered the M16 as a sissy weapon made of plastic and aluminum.

If I get within 10cm of an enemey. I'll use my sumpak to it's full advantage!
Tanker25
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 08:09 PM UTC
GiB,

so M's then for you my friend? lol

ill still go with the AK's. AK-74 vs M-4 then? lol
shonen_red
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 09:02 PM UTC
Having disassembled an M-16A1 in 10 secs, assembled it with 20 secs, fired 10 rounds at a target 15 meter distance, drills and ceremonies, I go with M-16 contra AK. But!!! Still, my all time favorite is the SA-80.
dodjiemd
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 09:14 PM UTC
I'll go for the AK. The US army armored vehicles personnel in iraq are actually trading in their M-16s for AKs.
jeremy47
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 09:37 PM UTC
m16, as for my hands on experience, this rifle is slightly heavier than ak-47s but heavier than the 74 variant. good thing is.. i tried firing for 500 yards with 3round bursts or semi auto suprisingly i hit the target board with no misses therefore it has good accuracy, low recoil too. as for maintenance hmmm quite easy to0.. disassembling is easy but assembling is quite.. hmm confusing(hmmm nklanghap ng mashadong powder hehe). i dunno if it is prone to jamming. but sources tell it is.

ak47,74- i held both when i was in mindoro. MAN! high RECOIL im telling you..
i fired a shot while standing and i was literally stunned by the blowback. i didnt go for the full auto coz...(ubos na bala). as for the 74 variant. smaller muzzle, slighlty smaller magazine, quite light than the m16. also easy to clean!

i would go for the AK! hehe......
GIBeregovoy
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 09:44 PM UTC
That's probably because the M16 is a longer weapon, making it harder to maneuver inside an APC/IFV, and there are not enough M4s in the area. Another is that the region is awash with AKs, so they're using it instead of the M16s since the AK with its larger calibre has greater penetrating capability - good where the insurgents are hiding behind a concrete wall. Then again, there's always the .50-cal or even the 120mm HEAT or MPAT for that one.

The problem with the "M16 is junk" myth is that when it was first introduced, it had a lot of problems, problems which permeated in the people's psyche that it is a worthless weapon, whereas the facts show that most of the problems have been fixed, that it has its strengths above the AK, and that it is now a sought after weapon for SpecOps troops due to its accuracy, "Lego" capability, weight and punching power.

Last I heard, some US Army personnel - particularly security personnel - were trading their M16s/M4s for FALs.

The SA80A2 I heard did mighty fine in Afghanistan and Iraq. However, I also heard that the MOD is seriously considering replacing the SA80A2 - perhaps they (the MOD) is still haunted by the earlier problems of the SA80 - problems which the M16 had in its earlier days but now have been corrected. The SA80A2 is currently at par with the M16A2/A4.

The AK has a "bad recoil" because it is a heavier weapon at 7.62mm calibre. The round is basically a shortened version of that used in machine guns. The greater recoil means less accuracy - especially when fired in the full auto mode. One permutation of the AK - I think it's the AK-101, not sure - uses a 5.52mm calibre, hence it is lighter, has less kick, resulting to greater accuracy.

In short, both AK and M16 have their strengths and weaknesses, and it all boils down to the user. If untrained, undisciplined, the AK is the better weapon. If trained, disciplined, the M16 is a better weapon. In the end, both can kill, both do their jobs fine.

Since the query is not qualified and I reckon it is merely one that inquires on one's personal tastes, I choose neither weapon. Instead, I choose the SA80A2 because it looks spanking pretty (I love bullpups) hehehehe.

EDIT:

I just noticed that two posts say the AK was lighter than the M16. I wonder - how come? IIRC, the M16 was lighter because of its plastic/aluminum body - hence it is more "fragile" - while the AK has a heavy wooden stock (I heard that in some countries, this has been replaced with plastic or hollowed out wood) and a steel body, hence its durability.
shonen_red
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 09:55 PM UTC
There was an AK variant the AKS which is a shortened version of the AK. The AK is an assault rifle while the AKS is classified as a submachine gun. SMG? 7.62 for an SMG??
GIBeregovoy
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 10:04 PM UTC
There's a smallish-"SMG" which has a 10mm round. Forgot the designation. Used more as a backup weapon and aimed to replace the pistol.

The short-barrel of the AKS made it into an SMG - shorter barrel, less accuracy, greater spray area.
Tanker25
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Posted: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 - 10:05 PM UTC
SR,

i think they wont use a 7.6 for a SMG. Unlike the FN90 which uses 5.56 and 50 rounds per mag. damn! thats one pretty SMG
dodjiemd
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Posted: Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 02:10 AM UTC

Quoted Text

That's probably because the M16 is a longer weapon, making it harder to maneuver inside an APC/IFV, and there are not enough M4s in the area. Another is that the region is awash with AKs, so they're using it instead of the M16s since the AK with its larger calibre has greater penetrating capability - good where the insurgents are hiding behind a concrete wall. Then again, there's always the .50-cal or even the 120mm HEAT or MPAT for that one.

The problem with the "M16 is junk" myth is that when it was first introduced, it had a lot of problems, problems which permeated in the people's psyche that it is a worthless weapon, whereas the facts show that most of the problems have been fixed, that it has its strengths above the AK, and that it is now a sought after weapon for SpecOps troops due to its accuracy, "Lego" capability, weight and punching power.

Last I heard, some US Army personnel - particularly security personnel - were trading their M16s/M4s for FALs.

The SA80A2 I heard did mighty fine in Afghanistan and Iraq. However, I also heard that the MOD is seriously considering replacing the SA80A2 - perhaps they (the MOD) is still haunted by the earlier problems of the SA80 - problems which the M16 had in its earlier days but now have been corrected. The SA80A2 is currently at par with the M16A2/A4.

The AK has a "bad recoil" because it is a heavier weapon at 7.62mm calibre. The round is basically a shortened version of that used in machine guns. The greater recoil means less accuracy - especially when fired in the full auto mode. One permutation of the AK - I think it's the AK-101, not sure - uses a 5.52mm calibre, hence it is lighter, has less kick, resulting to greater accuracy.

In short, both AK and M16 have their strengths and weaknesses, and it all boils down to the user. If untrained, undisciplined, the AK is the better weapon. If trained, disciplined, the M16 is a better weapon. In the end, both can kill, both do their jobs fine.



Remember that the AK was made for the soviet army, which is composed of conscripts, instead of trained professionals like the US army, the reason i guess why most 3rd world countries use the AKs. There are 2 general types of AKs. The 1st one the AK-47, was actually produced around 1947, and from what iv'e read, was a rip off from a german assault rifle, the Stg-44 (for better comparison, place a 1/35 scale AK beside the 1/35 scale stg-44.), but off course with a little tweaking to make it easier to handle. the next generation was the AK-74, which if i'm not mistaken was made around 1974, and addressed the deficiencies of the early one, ie lighter, less recoil etc. The M-16 was introduced during Nam as a replacment for the M-14. Like GiB mentioned, in the early phase, the rifle was useless in Nam, specially during the mud slogging, rains, etc, to the point that soldiers died in an ambush without having been to defend themselves. Of course now, they've already improved and is the official rifle of the US army. but i believe there are plans to replace it with the bullpup OICW. Back me up GiB!
GIBeregovoy
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Posted: Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 02:53 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Remember that the AK was made for the soviet army, which is composed of conscripts, instead of trained professionals like the US army, the reason i guess why most 3rd world countries use the AKs.



Exactly.


Quoted Text

There are 2 general types of AKs. The 1st one the AK-47, was actually produced around 1947, and from what iv'e read, was a rip off from a german assault rifle, the Stg-44 (for better comparison, place a 1/35 scale AK beside the 1/35 scale stg-44.), but off course with a little tweaking to make it easier to handle. the next generation was the AK-74, which if i'm not mistaken was made around 1974, and addressed the deficiencies of the early one, ie lighter, less recoil etc.



The AK-74 was an evolutionary development of the AK-47. I really dunno what "evolutionary development" occured to merit the designation "AK-74" but I reckon it involves mainly fine tuning of the design. IIRC, the AK-74 had an all metal body, as opposed to the AK-47 which had a wooden stock. Not sure if this was the main difference. They kept the calibre - 7.62mm. IIRC, there's an AK variant that is considered to be used by the airborne forces. I think - not sure really - it was chambered to 5.52mm. There was talk in TankNet about the rifle used by Osama bin Ladin as appeared in his tapes. Some say that the AK found there with the folding stock is the one used by the Soviet airborne forces, and that Osama was aware of this, hence his use of the weapon to make him "elite" in a sense.


Quoted Text

The M-16 was introduced during Nam as a replacment for the M-14.



The M-16's first use was by the USAF security personnel as the AR-15 IIRC. When the US Army went looking for a lighter rifle as a replacement to the M-14, the AR-15 won the competition and became the M-16.


Quoted Text

Like GiB mentioned, in the early phase, the rifle was useless in Nam, specially during the mud slogging, rains, etc, to the point that soldiers died in an ambush without having been to defend themselves.



The M-16, being a brand new weapon back then, had its troubled early life alright. Weapon jams were common. Compared to the AK, the M-16 was more complicated to field strip - a important factor because it jammed in the wet jungles of Vietnam. Bear in mind that the M-16 wasn't designed with jungle fighting in mind. The US was totally focused on a future war in Europe against the WP. Most of the US kit in fact was geared to this - not against guerilla warfare in Vietnam. One reason why things didn't "perform according to the sales brochures."


Quoted Text

but i believe there are plans to replace it with the bullpup OICW. Back me up GiB!



The OICW is officially dead. The weapon system was too big, too cumbersome, and too heavy. The combined 20mm grenade launcher/5.56 assault rifle has been separated. I think the 20mm grenade launcher has become the OKSW I think or something like that (Objective Kinetic Support Weapon), with the 20mm replaced with 25mm. The assault rifle component I forgot the designation - google it guys, it's somewhere there - and is basically based on the G3 with a telescoping stock like the M4. The US Army is averse to the idea of a bullpup for some strange reason. One thing I heard against the bullpup design was that it jammed alot. Another thing against it they argue is that it did not allow a left-handed person to fire it from the left hand because the casing was ejected in such a way as to make this difficult to operate using the left hand. However, the success of the SA80A2 and that Australian rifle (designation escapes me - G3?) which are bullpup designs show that the bullpup works. The big advantage with the bullpup from what I've read is that it allows for a shorter weapon without sacrificing barrel length. Hence you get a accurate, long range weapon whose overall length is quite short.

The M16 replacement has several versions and promises "80 to 90% commonality in parts" (yeah right - F-111 SNAFU remember?). The US Army is just obsessed about rails like that on the M16 so they can add thingies on the XM-8 (I think that's the designation - XM-8 - not to be confused with the XM-8 AGS). I've heard alot of comments that the design is just rubbish.
shonen_red
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Posted: Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 02:57 AM UTC
With regards on the SA-80 not being used by a left handed, the UK has added some kind of a plate so instead of the round slamming to the gunner's face, it will bounce off.
Fritz
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Posted: Monday, May 24, 2004 - 05:20 PM UTC
OK........the M16 is light, accurate, but more prone to damage & less reliable. The AK-47 is rugged, durable, can last in harsh climate, but it's heavier & less accurate. So it really depends on the user.

Quoted Text

If untrained, undisciplined, the AK is the better weapon. If trained, disciplined, the M16 is a better weapon. In the end, both can kill, both do their jobs fine.


But what if one is trained & disciplined & uses the AK-47???? hehehehe......just my thoughts
GIBeregovoy
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Posted: Monday, May 24, 2004 - 10:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text

But what if one is trained & disciplined & uses the AK-47???? hehehehe......just my thoughts



Easy. Then he'd bin the AK-47 (unless there's no other weapon around) and get the nearest M16A2 rifle within his reach.

No, correction.

First, he'd curse the AK-47 for not being to kill his enemies beyond 300 meters because it is inaccurate. Then he'd bin the AK-47 and get the M16A2 which his fallen comrade left beside him.


Quoted Text

OK........the M16 is light, accurate, but more prone to damage & less reliable.



Less reliable? Sweeping statement. It is only less reliable IF the user doesn't take care of his weapon. Like all things, one must be take proper care in using his tools. Don't expect each and every soldier (in case this is in your fantasy) to dirty up his M16 and, when a firefight erupts, curses that it has jammed. Here, it is NOT the rifle that is less reliable, but the soldier who didn't take proper care of his weapon. Neither is it prone to damage. Again, same thing - it is the user who causes the damage. If properly used, the M16 is just as reliable and sturdy as any other rifle out there.
Fritz
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Posted: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 12:53 PM UTC
Oh well, this was settled a long time ago. Both guns are just at par with each other & it will depend on the user in the end. (Still love the AK! )
Maybe I'll go with the FAMAS. That gun's a tough little bullpup. Or maybe the Paltik.....
shonen_red
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Posted: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 05:10 PM UTC
I'm with the SA-80 :-) :-) :-)
Fritz
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Posted: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 06:40 PM UTC
How about the Musket?
GIBeregovoy
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Posted: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:04 PM UTC
No no no no...

It is the Super Dooper Expanding Panday Blade that is the weapon of choice hehehe
Tanker25
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Posted: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:08 PM UTC
i'll still go with the colt 45 reload free pistol!!!

wala to lokohan na he he he


good day

AK rules!!!
homerboy
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Posted: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 01:46 AM UTC
Hi Guys, we are comparing apples and oranges here.

There are 2 major variants of the AK the AK-47 which is 7.62X39 and the Ak74 which is 5.45x39. both are 16 in barrels Both looks similar inside out only differnce beween them is the barrel. You cannot interchange the magazine. You can interchange the trigger disconnetor and the sear, pistol grip butt stock. Bolt cannot be interchanged. The Top cover can also be interchaged with some alterations. The receiver are almost identical except for the case ejector, a little bit longer on the AK74. Most of the diffence is in the front part of the AK. I have both of these rifles, nuff said. Go the this link. I made an aks-74 side folding stock. http://www.geocities.com/afponlinemuseum/Links.html THis particular aks is only 8 inch in barrel that is the major difference between the regular lenght ak-74

As we all know the M16 is 5.56X45 and is 20in barrel. We also have the "baby armalite " XM 177 which is a 16 inch barreled M16 that finally evolved to the M4. What ever you say the baby armalite and the M4 are basically the same, receiver, fire controll wise, only difference is the barrel profile and the furniture added for esthetics.

Accuracy, well M16 is very accurate because of the barrel lenght which is 20in. Its a different story if you compare it with the 16 inch barreled baby armalite and M4. You would be surprised that and M4 is not as accurate as the regular 20 inch barrel m16. either.

The best comparison would be the M4 or "baby armalite" vs the AK-74 bec both are 16 inch barrels. I have yet to buy and M4 so I can compare them.

Just in case you dont know, there is also an AK74 variant that is chambared 5.56x45. YES an AK variant that uses the M16 bullet--- SURPISE the GALIL read the history how the galil evolved from the valmet which is a Finnish AK . Also check this site http://world.guns.ru/assault/as06-e.htm

Bullet design, M16 bullet is designed to disintegrate upon penetration but they ran into problems when used in a 16 inch barreled M4. THat is why they change the bullet from 55 grain bullet to a 62 grain bullet because the, 55 grain bullet did not perform well in the 16 inch barrel. Accuracy on the M16, M4 is also affected by the the twist rate of the barrel .

5.45x39 bullet of the AK74 has a space cavity on the front of the nose which is designed to tumble upon penetration for grater tissue damage. http://www.snipersparadise.com/wound/woundpattern.htm

Weight, well both ak's are heavier than the M16

Recoil wise the AK-47 kicks ass. The Ak-74 recoil is similar to the M16.

If you get hit by any of these bullets ARAY ko po masakit yun

I prefer the AK design for combat and the M16 for target shooting
blitz
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Posted: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 02:04 AM UTC
Yup I think there was an episode in Discovery Channel, a comparison of the AK and M-16,during the Vietnam era.
And my verdict.. I'll stick to the AK
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