I know the Sherman vs Tiger or Panther debate has been done to death but I wonder how the real workhorse of the German army, the Pz IV, compares to the Shermans, Fireflies, and Cromwells? Say in June 1944 to compare apples to apples?


My gut feeling is they were pretty evenly matched. The German tanks might have an advantage with diesel being not as flammable, but the Shermans had better reliability. The Firefly probably has the best gun of them all and the Cromwell is good overall, but not great in one area.

What do you all think?

The best comparison in terms of armour, mobility and firepower would be the PzIV vs the Cromwell. On equal ground about the only difference would be the speed of the Cromwell, a pretty equal battle. By June 1944 the best German crews had already gone but against that they were in a defensive position.
The Shermans wweaknesses in armour and firepower have been discussed here before, but the Firefly would definitely have the edge on the gunnery front as the 17pdrs A/P ammo would make a sieve out of a PzIV without even noticing it had hit something.

IMHO, tell me how well the crew is trained. Poor craftsmen always blame their tools.
DJ

as has been already said, the cromwell was very evenly matched with the PZ1V,
the cromwells gun could penetrate the frontal armour of the panzer at 1000 yards and it was much faster.

however i feel DJs idea has more to do with it. By 1944 most of germanys experienced tankers were dead or captured. only the SS panzer divisions had the top class tankers. compare that with the 7th armoured (main users of cromwells) of whom many had fought from the beginning of the desert war.

for example my great uncle was a grenadier guardsman. he served between 1931 and 1938 reaching the rank of sergeant. in 1939 when the war started he joined up retaining his prewar rank. he fought with the BEF in france, made it off the beach at dunkirk after fighting with the rear guard. from then until d-day the grenadier guards were transformed from an infantry regiment to an armoured one, so he was retrained as a tanker, serving in fireflies from the normandy campaign to being wounded during market garden.

thats just one example, a lot of british soldiers (particularly NCOs) in 1944 had a similar level of experience!

cheers

joe

it all comes down to this would you rather be in a pzkw lV or a sherman a.k.a. ronson lighter or a cromwell?i'd take a cromwell.

Cromwell, no contest. The Christie suspension would make it a better vehicle cross-country and mobility would give it the edge, also by reputation an easier tank to drive well.

I am dubious of the Cromwell's capabilities. It is a versatile chassis, but I thought the gun system was inadequate for the type engagements seen in Western Europe. Am I wrong here?
DJ

Now I will agree that the Cromwell had better Armor and Speed but it's gun was less effective than the M3 Series gun used in the Sherman. The Cromwell used the 75mm Ordnance Quick Firing MKs V and Va( Bored out 6lbrs) which fired a 13.75 Lb Shot that would penetrate 68mm of Armor at 500 Yards set at 30 Deg with a Muzzle velocity of 2030 FPS. While the Sherman with the M-3 75mm Gun Fired a 13.75 Lb Shot( They both fired the same ammo) at 2300 fps for a penetration of 75mm at 500 also set at 30 deg. The PzKfw IV fired a simular shot at as I recall left the barrel around 2900 FPS that was able to penetrate approx 95mm at 1000 yards. So while the Cromwell had a slight advantage over the Sherman mobility and armor wise neither was a match for the later marks of the PzKfw IV (Which was a good tank in its own right) Now if you include the 76mm (APC 88 mm at 1000 Yards and with HVAP it goes up to 133mm at 1000 yards) armed Shermans as well as the 17 Lbrs (120mm at 500 yards and with APDS it was 186mm)then you start to exceed the gun on the German Vehicle but you are still left with Thin Armor? So in the Defence the PzKfw had the advantage over either the Cromwell or the Shermans. Just late and bored I guess as this is way too many numbers for me! Mind you this is all coming from a Shermanaholic!
Cheers
Jeff Larkin

German tanks were not diesel fueled, they were gasoline like the Allied tanks. So no advantage there.