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Modeling in General
General discussions about modeling topics.
colour for truckdrivers in tank units
Paulinsibculo
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Posted: Friday, October 20, 2017 - 10:53 PM UTC
Who knows the answer to this:
Did the Tiger tank units have their own trucks for ammo transport?
If so, were these Mercedes L4500 types?
And did the drivers wear the black panzertruppen uniform or did they wear the ‘normal’ green/grey uniform with blue pipped shoulderpatches?

Thanks in advance!
Jmarles
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Posted: Sunday, October 22, 2017 - 01:07 AM UTC
Indeed most of the vehicles in these batallions were not tanks. The companies themselves, of course were made up of tanks, SPGs etc. Staff cars, motorcycles, medium tanks, trucks and halftracks could all be found in these groups. Presumably the truck drivers would wear regular service uniforms or the service overall. If you don't mind Tamiya figures the Famo kit has such crew members.
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 - 12:20 AM UTC
Eric Lefevre's book on Panzer units in Normandy shows a theoretical standard organisation chart for a Panzer regiment, which includes a regimental Workshop/Maintenance (Werkstatt)company and a Service Company for each Battalion (Abteilung). In the same book, an organisation chart for SS sPzAbt 101 shows three Panzer companies and a Workshop company, so the sevices were probably combined with the workshop in this unit. So the answer is yes, panzer units contained their own truck supply companies. The vehicles in use probably depended on what was available, but according to Lefevre, the 4.5T type (not necessarily Mercs, but also Bussing/NAG etc) featured prominently carrying ammunition, spare parts and fuel (usually normal trucks with barrels, not bowsers). In addition there were workshop trucks, radio trucks, mobile cranes etc. A medical unit of some size or other frequently had Sdkfz 251/8 ambulance vehicles.
Personnel, other than tank crews were supposed to wear normal service dress, with pink piping of course. A book in my posession has a photo of a truck driver from the Panzer Pionere Abteilung in "Herman Goering" wearing Black Panzer uniform, but this unit was a law unto themselves.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 - 09:21 AM UTC
The organization of an actual unit is never so neat as a table of organization and equipment shows. The German military had a noted shortage of motor transport which resulted in all kinds of appropriated vehicles as returns show.

As for piping, a truck driver would have blue because he's a truck driver. Doesn't matter that he's in a Panzer unit. Now if there are Panzer crewmen without tanks and you need a spare truck driver, that panzermann will find himself driving a truck in Panzer uniform with pink piping. That's the army.

Same way as a US tanker is told to only wear his nomex on the tank, but they need a guy for some detail and there's this extra guy so they grab him and there's a tanker in nomex nowhere near a tank driving a truck.

I've read about instances late in World War II where Navy and Luftwaffe personnel would be transferred to army units as replacements and auxiliary personnel because there were no more ships and planes. This could result in a shop truck driver wearing the Kreigsmarine field grey uniform with the telltale gold breast eagle.
Jmarles
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Posted: Saturday, October 28, 2017 - 06:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The organization of an actual unit is never so neat as a table of organization and equipment shows. The German military had a noted shortage of motor transport which resulted in all kinds of appropriated vehicles as returns show.

As for piping, a truck driver would have blue because he's a truck driver. Doesn't matter that he's in a Panzer unit. Now if there are Panzer crewmen without tanks and you need a spare truck driver, that panzermann will find himself driving a truck in Panzer uniform with pink piping. That's the army.

Same way as a US tanker is told to only wear his nomex on the tank, but they need a guy for some detail and there's this extra guy so they grab him and there's a tanker in nomex nowhere near a tank driving a truck.

I've read about instances late in World War II where Navy and Luftwaffe personnel would be transferred to army units as replacements and auxiliary personnel because there were no more ships and planes. This could result in a shop truck driver wearing the Kreigsmarine field grey uniform with the telltale gold breast eagle.



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Yep in Normandy and Holland we know for sure Luftwaffe personell found themselves thrust from boring airfield duty to fierce close-quarter AFV and ground fighting . Would make an interesting tank crew!
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 04:44 AM UTC
Sorry,have to take issue with the waffenfarbe. A member of a panzer unit, i.e. a Panzerregiment or Abteilung, whatever his role, tank crewman, mechanic or truck driver wore the pink panzer waffenfarbe, not blue. Blue was reserved for transport battalions. The fact that a man was a truck driver did not define his waffenfarbe, it was the unit he belonged to. In the same way, infantry truck drivers wore white and infantry gun crews in infantry regiments wore white or apple green, not red (artillery) nor did infantry signallers wear yellow. The fact that a man was posted to a different unit in the chaos of the last year of the war did not really change the system, he would be correctly outfitted as soon as possible.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Sunday, October 29, 2017 - 06:01 PM UTC
In what army? As soon as possible usually meant never in 1944-1945. Troops were cross attached and no one was certain what battalion someone belonged to and sometimes by the time the paperwork caught up that unit no longer existed so the troops were sent to another.

Often personnel would be cross attached from specialty units so the transport for a panzer unit may have actually come from a transport unit and was "appropriated "

Then there was no organic transport for one reason or another and it all came from transport battalions complete with driver's and mechanics. There are any number of POW returns as well as memoirs that document this chaos.

In fact at one point the usual field grey uniform was just issued with white piping because the supply system was hard pressed to keep up with all the different colors. The same thing had happened in the First World War as well. The exceptions were usually signals and medical.

And then there was the confusion about exactly at what unit level was the different colors to be enforced? And someone always wanted to buck the system due their own special status.

Of course conversely, if someone was on the ball, they'd toss a pair of shoulder straps at the guy while they're repainting the tactical markings on the truck.
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Friday, November 03, 2017 - 04:14 PM UTC
The original question asked about Tiger units. While I accept that this implies a late war unit, there was no mention of chaotic conditions or specific 1944-5 period, after all these units existed from 1942 on. Up until late 1944, the Germans made every effort to continue to run in an organised manner, even in the combat zone, sometimes even to the detriment of efficiency. This applied particularly to elite units, which Tiger battalions were. The arguement that "anything goes in the last few months of the war", while based in fact, to me is specious, as when we are discussing how a unit was organised, we are talking about the normal organisation, and my answer was in accord with this. If we go with the above arguement why make any effort to "get things right" just go with what looks pretty?
Jmarles
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Posted: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 - 06:51 AM UTC
[quote]The original question asked about Tiger units. While I accept that this implies a late war unit, there was no mention of chaotic conditions or specific 1944-5 period, after all these units existed from 1942 on. Up until late 1944, the Germans made every effort to continue to run in an organised manner, even in the combat zone, sometimes even to the detriment of efficiency. This applied particularly to elite units, which Tiger battalions were. The arguement that "anything goes in the last few months of the war", while based in fact, to me is specious, as when we are discussing how a unit was organised, we are talking about the normal organisation, and my answer was in accord with this. If we go with the above arguement why make any effort to "get things right" just go with what looks pretty?
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Yep, I guess the best advice is to research the particulars of the battle. In Arnhem, for instance, many Luftwaffe signal troops operated as infantry,fighting alongside the SS and heavy tank battalions. Same goes for naval troops. Many units were not motorised but were transported by WH or SS units. In cases like this, the individuals would of course retain their uniform and insgnia. But as for mixing arms of service or units; well better to ve safe than sorry and go with what you know.
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