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Modeling in General
General discussions about modeling topics.
Are Modellers losing the Plot?
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Saturday, February 13, 2016 - 11:57 PM UTC
What am I talking about? Well it seems that as the years role by modellers seem to take less enjoyment from the hobby, we are quick to jump on the band wagon and chastise a company or product on the words of an expert. Back in the 70’s and 80’s my satisfaction with the hobby came from building a model, adding a few bits and pieces and then painting it. Back then if it looked like a Sherman and could be identified as a Sherman then it was a Sherman. Move forward to today when a model of a Sherman is castigated if the weld seam is not correctly betrayed, and woe betide any manufacturer who is out by a few mm in any dimension.

Now don’t get me wrong, I know there are modellers who work at producing the very best and most realistic models it is possible to build. They are often lampooned as rivet counters; in truth I suspect many just wish they could produce models in the same class as them. Having managed Armorama for a while now and having been on the staff way too long, I have seen models that fall into many categories, from the very best to members who are just starting to get to grips with the hobby. Through looking at these models I can usually gain some enjoyment from looking them over, be that taking away a new technique or finishing style to the enjoyment of helping someone with an issue they have encountered.

Today it seems that the enjoyment of the hobby has been diminished by modellers trying to live up to the same standards as those who have excelled in the hobby. Most of us are guilty of at some time of not purchasing a certain model because someone has said its poor or the dimensions are X mm off of the real vehicle. It is reasons such as this that I ask the question, are we losing the Plot? Does it really matter to 99.999 % of us if a Sherman is 5 mm too long? How many of us could even spot that a model is out by 5 mm?

In addition I look at some of the threads that have been started of late and how angry some members get from all sides of an argument. If we put the same energy into building models and helping fellow modellers the modelling world would be a better place for it. One particular thread that galls me has 11 pages with 266 posts and over 17,000 views; can we not put some of this energy into replying to build threads and finished models, perhaps even taking the time to comment on a review. I am not saying that everything we post has to be sugar and spice and all things nice, but if not complementary how about constructive?

So what do you think?
russamotto
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 12:04 AM UTC
I agree, and I am very guilty of doing this very thing. I had to sit back this past year and think about what I was doing and why. This is all supposed to be fun and relaxing. I build what I like, do my best, learn what I can and always seek to improve. After all, this is just a hobby.
AussieReg
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 12:49 AM UTC
Darren, you are spot on mate! I envy the "rivet counters" for their precision work and attention to detail, and would never criticise them for being so as this is what they enjoy from the hobby. I don't have the patience or skill set required to reach the amazing results I see in build threads here on Kitmaker every single day, but that does not in any way detract from my enjoyment of modelling. I do the best I can, I do as much as I want to, I try to improve a bit or experiment with a new technique or product from time to time, but mostly I relax and enjoy the subject matter research, the build, and the cameraderie here. Sharing the build and taking in the comments and critique have become an integral part of the enjoyment of the hobby for me, especially here on Kitmaker.


Relax and model on folks!

Cheers, D
JPTRR
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RAILROAD MODELING
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 01:07 AM UTC
Darren,

I concur. As much as I revere new state-of-the-art models with a high state of accuracy and authenticity, I am trying therapy to overcome AMS (Advanced Modeler Syndrome) and become a reformed rivet-counter. I think this is why I have started enjoying the older kits of the 1960s-70s. Aside from nostalgia, they are just fun.

Don't get me wrong, I love the latest-greatest, but all the fretting I do about mixing the correct hue for the interior of an exhaust manifold to represent, for instance, synthetic fuel verses fossil fuel, as well as worrying if my drill is actually a 1/35 .303" for the muzzle of an Enfield - kinda takes away the joy of just building something.

For those who find those pursuits enjoyable, I still get great satisfaction from seeing the bar raised for the art of the hobby.
Jmarles
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 01:12 AM UTC
It's certainly a valid concern. With the advent of internet forums, it's easy to get off-track. Drama certainly attracts drama, and these forums can easily become a place for people to constantly bleat their accusations, drivel, the fact only THEIR opinion is correct, etc. There are certainly more than a few posters who love to hear the sound of their own voice, or rather, see it, lol. For myself, I like to read reviews, get news and reply the odd time if I see something of interest or if I can give a tidbit of advice. I am not a rivet counter as I have neither the time nor means to go that route but I certainly applaud those who do. I usually build DOOB where possible, adding a few bits of PE or resin if it's feasible. If something is way off I will try to fix it. Like most modellers who have been doing this since the 1980's my stash is so large that I will never live to finish them! I don't have a problem with people critiquing new kits as long as it's civil. And yes, I even visit my local hobby store often! I make enough as a high aerial rigger in the film biz that saving five bucks only to wait three weeks for an item to arrive is not a value to me - my time is much more precious with an 84 hour work week. I rarely buy new release anyway, as prices often drop significantly a few months later. The only new release I REALLY wanted happened to be on sale - the 1/35 Roden Omnibus - so I grabbed it. Other than that I just buy whatever may be interesting or cheap. My LHS has a 10% discount scheme plus a large sale table so I usually check that first ( an Amusing Leopard for $20? Sign me up!) I will also buy off Amazon and my online source, or even Craigslist. Modelling is a lot cheaper than constantly upgrading power tools, expensive hand tools and grip equipment! In closing, I wish people would just chill out a bit more and stop with the sniping and trolling.
SgtRam
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 02:14 AM UTC
Darren

You are bang on, while I admire the work of "rivet counters", I enjoy the hobby of building the kits, not building 100% replicas. I don't care is a kit is not perfect, if it looks like a duck, them to me it is a duck, and I am not concerned what other people have to say. People enjoy the hobby the way they want, and that is fine by me.

I do find that the "rivet counters" are more critical about new releases, and are more vocal about the inaccuracies. And at times I believe it does scare the regular modeller away from the kit. For me, as longs at the kit goes together well, I am happy.

To me getting to the bench and glueing some parts together or applying some paint is relaxing, gets me away from the stress of the day, and that is how I want to enjoy the hobby.

Keep calm and build a model.

JPTRR
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RAILROAD MODELING
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 02:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

...if it looks like a duck, them to me it is a duck, and I am not concerned what other people have to say.

Keep calm and build a model.



Well said, Kevin.
Jmarles
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 02:48 AM UTC
Speaking of reviews I enjoy the more technical and critical ones. It leaves me with most of the information I need to make an informed choice. Do I like the kit enough regardless of incorrect parts or dimensions? Is it simply a reissue or rebox? What are the decal options? Are extra bits included? Or in the case of Dragon, are PE, metal barrels, indy tracks, decal options and clear parts deleted? Have incorrect parts been improved (rear idlers on DML panzer II), etc. It's certainly helpful to know the provenance of kits as most manufacturers have rebox arrangements. Revell Germany and Italeri reboxing ICM kits, for instance - they are often cheaper and have nicer decal options. It's also nice to be warned about blunders and gaffs. The Dragon Black plague line comes to mind, as does their Panzer IV DAK that had incorrect tracks and idlers. Or Italeri's rather poor Panther and Tiger offerings...nice to know in a review ahead of time rather than find out when you open the box! I can live with some accuracy letdowns - I enjoy building for the fun of it and chances are no-one will ever see my models except for my girlfriend. I make each decision based on my particular fondness for a subject, hence my point on wanting the Italeri anti-tank Dodge kit re-released. Sure, it's soft on detail, has a solid barrel, incorrect shield dimensions, etc. But it'll look damn cool with a bit of TLC!
CMOT
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 02:57 AM UTC
Reviews by their very nature have to be a balance between accuracy, ease of build and parts quality. by looking at a model from those aspects it should give most people the info they need.
Jmarles
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 03:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Reviews by their very nature have to be a balance between accuracy, ease of build and parts quality. by looking at a model from those aspects it should give most people the info they need.



Well said.
Namabiiru
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MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 03:54 AM UTC
I think we have to be careful that we don't mix apples and oranges. When I hear the term 'rivet counter' in my mind it has a pejorative connotation and conjures an image of someone who criticizes other people's work because of things they perceive to be technical inaccuracies. I wouldn't apply that term to someone simply because they strive for (and achieve) exceptionally high accuracy in their own work.

Any community is going to have their members who gain satisfaction in denigrating others, and modeling is no different--we're not all old, and we're not all mature!

For my part, observing the 'pros' go through the process of turning out a very detailed and accurate product seems to be a bit of a double-edged sword: I learn a lot from them and am encouraged to improve, but on the other hand I do get discouraged when I realize I will probably never achieve the same level of proficiency.

Modeling, while at times stressful, is still something I enjoy and do for relaxation. I guess I'm quite satisfied with the 'oohs' and 'ahhs' of the visitors who look at my collection on the shelf and don't know or care about the difference between a glacis and a mantlet.

When I look at my work, yes, I know there are better examples out there, but it's my work and I take pride in it nonetheless.

Jaberwocky61
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 04:26 PM UTC
It's why I have never been bothered about entering competitions at the bigger shows. I make my kits for enjoyment not prizes. Got no time for those who tell me its the wrong shade of olive drab or I've got a unit marking wrong. There was a debate recently on another forum where a new kit was being criticised for literally missing a rivet. Those people need to get a life.
Robbd01
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 10:12 PM UTC
Darren, It is the hobby evolving trying to keep up with the modeler whether that said modeler admits it or not. I built my first plastic model in 1961 at the age of 4 and I knew even at that age though my red sports car (don't remember the make/model) was built as best as I could and it looked like said sport scar on the box cover, I knew that the tires(tyres) are not red like the rest of the car and the bumpers did not look like that and they were chrome. So thus it began... I now needed to get paint...

Cheers
CMOT
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 10:26 PM UTC
Robbie I fear you may be right in that the drive for accuracy is detracting from the enjoyment, after all we know the perfect model will never be available.
Robbd01
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Posted: Sunday, February 14, 2016 - 10:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Robbie I fear you may be right in that the drive for accuracy is detracting from the enjoyment, after all we know the perfect model will never be available.



Well, I think it is that drive for perfection that is the enjoyment (to a point) though I doubt I will ever reach the level that some have achieved as seen on this forum. It is just a matter of you coming to terms that no matter how hard you try, there is always another modeler out there that built the same model that looks better than yours


Cheers

tatbaqui
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Monday, February 15, 2016 - 04:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Robbie I fear you may be right in that the drive for accuracy is detracting from the enjoyment, after all we know the perfect model will never be available.



Well, I think it is that drive for perfection that is the enjoyment (to a point) though I doubt I will ever reach the level that some have achieved as seen on this forum. It is just a matter of you coming to terms that no matter how hard you try, there is always another modeler out there that built the same model that looks better than yours



Cheers




Well said!
firstcircle
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 03:42 AM UTC
One of my favourite comments on a review recently was David Byrden on Adie Roberts' Rye Field Tiger:

"Every Tiger review I've read lately has been from somebody familiar with the shared opinions on the kit. Mr. Roberts didn't repeat any of the familiar complaints about Rye Field's 5001. He just took it "as is". That's refreshing, and we should bear in mind that a lot of kit purchasers are in that position."

Robbd01
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 05:17 AM UTC
I would also like to add to my other post(s) an interesting phenomena that I find myself gravitating to and that is I find that the higher the price of a kit I want(wish) is directly proportional to the desire to count the rivets or at least find those that do (not meaning to be condescending). I know that as Darren mentioned, I doubt I would even notice the .0x mm off dimension or wrong weld but to find out this(or any) discrepancy and I artificially feel my value on my investment diminishes. Case in point can we say Eduard Bf-109G kit? I bought the Royal Class and now I have 2x 1/47 scale kits (The beer glass helped with the disappointment and coming to terms ) On the other hand I can buy an Airfix kit and not flinch if this or that is a little wrong.



So as they say - the Plot thickens

Cheers


Namabiiru
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MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 06:11 AM UTC
I think Robbie has nailed it. (STS)

CMOT
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 02:03 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I would also like to add to my other post(s) an interesting phenomena that I find myself gravitating to and that is I find that the higher the price of a kit I want(wish) is directly proportional to the desire to count the rivets or at least find those that do (not meaning to be condescending). I know that as Darren mentioned, I doubt I would even notice the .0x mm off dimension or wrong weld but to find out this(or any) discrepancy and I artificially feel my value on my investment diminishes. Case in point can we say Eduard Bf-109G kit? I bought the Royal Class and now I have 2x 1/47 scale kits (The beer glass helped with the disappointment and coming to terms ) On the other hand I can buy an Airfix kit and not flinch if this or that is a little wrong.



So as they say - the Plot thickens

Cheers





Robbie: That is a position I can concur with 100%, I fully agree that a premium priced product should score very highly in the categories of accuracy, build ability and quality. i will add that I do now expect at least some photo etched parts to cover areas such as engine vents where applicable. I would also expect metal barrels where possible. Lastly I would like to be offered either the choice of individual tracks or 1 piece vinyl when purchasing or ideally inside the same box. I again will make clear that I am thinking about the standard tank models in the £50 to £60 range ($80 - $100 US).

On the figure front I would also like to see companies such as ICM, Mini Art and Master Box stop moulding patch detail on their figures and offer decals for this purpose instead. I do believe that as all of the companies I have mentioned have the ability to produce decals for alternate products they produce and this would be a relatively cheap addition that would greatly improve their products appeal to Joe average. I would add Dragon Models to that, but they seem to have stopped listening to the modeller, or at the very least have their attention elsewhere. It is a pity to see a company that ruled the roost for so long change tack and lose their crown without putting up a fight.

To get back on track: I do accept that accuracy, and building it into a model is what drives many, and is the aspect of a finished model that pleases them and provides their satisfaction in the hobby. I myself still feel that many of us in our drive for the ultimate accurate model have lost something along the way. I started building AirFix model planes with a Granddad as a very young child, there would be paint and glue everywhere, and if I am honest not everything was where it should be. When I think back to those days, they outshine all of the successes I have had with the hobby since and it is this element that I feel we rob from the youngster coming into the hobby. All of the talk about uber accuracy and the like deters and demoralises people coming to the hobby. Even now as an editor on Armorama I am reluctant to display work because of the comments some may make that will likely get my back up. It is not easy to put into words exactly why I feel as I do when asking the question ‘Are Modellers Losing the Plot?’.
fhvn4d
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Posted: Tuesday, February 16, 2016 - 05:47 PM UTC
Darren, This was a great article and there is a ton of good feedback in it! As you know I am doing one of my first reviews and build reviews for the network. I am by no means a rivet counter, but to pay hommage to those willing to do the detailed research I am doing my best to read into the build. Having said that, there are no AM parts going on, and no extras being done to this kit, which I love. It is as straight by the instructions sheet as I can make it. If anything, with my build review I am leaining toward the novice builders view, trying to make sure and call out large gaps or fit problems, but also if they fix easily. I think, and I could be wrong, is that too many people take their hobby and passion and make it work and competition. Now again, bragging rights arent a bad thing, but I build for the personal satisfaction of having completed something... sanding in particular for me is relaxing (yeah right). So, to the masses who bury themselves with details and documented accyracy I say, have a snickers, and do an OOB once in a whole ! you will be happy for it !
PanzerKarl
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Posted: Saturday, February 20, 2016 - 11:57 AM UTC
There are a couple reasons why I gave up on model armor:

I was never any good anyway and could not compete with today's standards

Too damn expensive.
:-?
RLlockie
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Posted: Saturday, February 20, 2016 - 12:26 PM UTC
For some people, burying themselves in details and documented accuracy gives them satisfaction. Maybe building from the box doesn't given them enjoyment because they would not be happy that the result met their standards. Completing something is not everyone's primary goal. As they are entitled to their hobby (and the things they learn are often shared with others to allow them to absorb or ignore) they may resent being told that they should pursue it in a different way because that will have more fun doing it that way just because someone else thinks so.
CMOT
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Posted: Saturday, February 20, 2016 - 03:27 PM UTC
Guys I am not trying to say a person’s goals are wrong. However if the sole reason for building a model is 100% accuracy, then we are going to fail before we even open the box. What I want you to consider is the possibility that looking at every model from a perfection viewpoint as regards accuracy denigrates those that just want to make models, side-lines them if you like?
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