guys just want to know if its possible to overcoat a waterbased paint (aqueous acrylics) with a lacguer based paint?

wont the lacquer paint eat throught the waterpaint??
i'm planning to try to use a clear coat of lacquerbased paint over the aqeuous paint #:-) #:-) #:-)

hehe just want to experiment on it...

Hey there, Flex.

Ive done Gunze over Tamiya water-based and Mr. Aqueous and had no problems. In fact, Ive used Gunze thinner to thin down Tamiya acrylics. Be careful of the lacquer brand youre using though. Too strong and it might affect your kit.

Hope this helps.

No problem - as long as it is either sprayed on or airbrushed, and that the over coat is not applied too much. I've clear coated acrylics with lacquers.

My painting technique nowadays is to paint the main color/base coat with lacquer. Over this, I use enamel. If a third color is required, I use acrylic. That way, if the enamel goes to an unintended place, I can wipe it off with enamel thinner without harming the lacquer base coat. Same with acrylic - it won't harm the enamel nor lacquer.

I put that to good use on the Porsche, where the black paint around the windshield was brush painted over the the lacquer painted body - any excess was simply rubbed off by a Q-tip soaked in enamel thinner. :-)

thanks there for the info guys...

Buck: during our EB at JMN you told me about waterbased paints getting dirty after holding the model too much because it reacts with the paint and so i thought why not first use waterbased paints with the main color and then final coat it with a lacquer clear coat thus would allow me to hold the model w/out darkening the whole paint job!

btw would lacquerbased paints have a strong hold on the painted surface?

Actually, holding a model with your bare hands - particularly if the finish is flat - clear coated or not - will eventually darken, because since the surface is flat, the minute ridges that make the paint flat will accumulate dirt, thus causing it to darken.

As for bare (i.e., non-coated) acrylics, the oil from one's fingers could/would react with the acrylic paint in the long run.

I don't really understand much your final query - do you mean that on an acrylic base, they will hold? If so, yes it will. Actually, it also depends really on how close you are when you spray them. Too far and you end up having colored dust on the surface - this happened to my Musashi. Same thing if the air pressure is set too high.

Hope that helped.

GI: Yup i'm asking if the lacquer clear would bite to the acrylic paint. oh btw can u use industrial lacquer thinner on these type of paint those normally found in ginebra bottles?

so how far does it take for the clear coat to really set? for the pressure...does the lacquer paint still needs to be wet when airbrushed to the model...meaning when it touches the surface of the model...is it better if it is still on its liquid state or nearing to dry?

On lacquer clear coat biting into the paint - well, if in excess, maybe - and that's a really maybe - because it hasn't happened to me yet AFAIK.

On lacquer thinner - theoretically, yes. I think this is the Sphero lacquer Fiawrc told me about when we talked about thinners last time. Use it sparingly. I use the "ginebra" lacquer thinners for cleaning purposes (i.e., cleaning my airbrush and tools - not the model). If ever, you can use it - just sparingly and from a distance. Directly, it'll eat into any paint and even the plastic. I had that unfortunate experience before. However, according to Fiawrc, there is another lacquer thinner which is similar to the Mr. Thinner of Gunze, only much cheaper and available at auto paint shops. IIRC, it's polyeurethane lacquer thinner, and is from what I understand basically the same as Mr. Thinner. Mr. Thinner is a "weak" lacquer and won't hurt bare plastic even when soaked in it.

On the pressure - I reckon you mean using clear lacquer and spraying it via airbrush. I really haven't done that - been using those in spray cans instead. But basically, from what I've read, it is always best that when you airbrush - regardless of paint type or color - when the paint hits the model, it should be almost dry - or looks dry. If it looks wet, that means you are either spraying too close or you sprayed too much.

I do hope that Fiawrc and others from IPMS join in this discussion as they've got more experience with thinners and paints.

GI: im just wondering here cause when i was a little younger #:-) i bought a gunze dark gull gray in can and sprayed over the model and even how many times i hold it , it never darkens...even tried to scratch it off with my nails and whoaa its really tough!

i was just wondering what type of paint is found in cans? Epoxy or lacquer considering it was really tough! are lacquer paints really that tough?

Ah! That was the super rare uber-enamel line of spray paints by Gunze!

Seriously, methinks lacquer is tougher for the same reason that it can melt plastic if used in excess.

BTW, enamel is also a very good paint and I'm thinking of using it almost exclusively for future model car projects because IIRC, from an article I read in FSM, gloss enamels don't need a clear coat - they already have inherent gloss properties and that all one needs to do is to buff it to bring out the shine.

Enamels also finish smoothly, almost brush-stroke-less if done the right way -- most of the car-modellers I know use this talaga as their primary paints.

Yes, it will, Flex. If youre painting on bare plastic, just make sure the surface is free of dirt and oil. Wash the model with soapy water.

Lacquer is the toughest paint Ive used. It doesnt react with the oil in your skin and wont darken. Ive even washed completed models with soap and water to rid them of accumulated dirt! Now thats a real scrub-down. Just make sure you have a clear coat, though, otherwise, its bye bye decals.

The paint found on most Gunze spray cans is the same paint you find in bottles, only with a thicker consistency. Gunze has some sort of fascination with commonality. In fact, the surfacer series is actually thinned Gunze putty.

I believe all of Gunze's spray cans come in lacquer. I haven't heard of Gunze coming out with an enamel based line of paints(looking at their catalog now), only acrylic and lacquer. Most if not all of Gunze paint come in semi-gloss finish. Even their "flat" colors are quite smooth so that's probably the reason they didn't darken when you handled the model. I've always sworn by Gunze, especially their thinner. It works fantastic on almost all types of paint and doesn't mar plastic, even the clear lexan RC bodies that I've had to clean up after painting jobs. Gunze is also great for decals since the semi-gloss finish doesn't lend itself to silvering.

wow thanks guys for those infos!!! keep em coming

i'll be using that technique to finish my superhornet that is now ready for decaling...darn i thought i could finish it b4 2004 ...hay

i'll just post pics of it if i ever finish it...

buck: one more thing is it ok b4 i paint the model with lacquer clear coat that the model should be coated in gloss clear or flat clear? which would be better?

Flex,

It would be better to put on a gloss clear coat on the painted model prior to applying the decals. That way, the decals will stick better to the surface and silvering will be minimized. Thereafter, another coat of clear gloss should seal the decal and the surface, after which, a final coat of flat clear can be applied.

Bull,

Good to see you back in the groove. Just got another stripe.

yup done that already! but i was asking if before i apply the final coat of a clear lacquer...what would be a better surface gloss or flat?
MAny thanks BUCK!

Flex: It does not matter. You can apply a lacquer clear coat without a previous gloss or flat coat above the decal.

This is what I basically do, say, when I paint a military vehicle:

1) Paint model with flat paint
2) Clear coat with gloss
3) Decal
4) Clear coat with gloss
5) Wash
6) Clear coat with flat
7) Drybrush (or an approximate of it)

The final clear gloss in my procedure above is not for "grip" for the final lacquer clear coat (which is the flat), but for the wash (to make the wash flow smoothly). With the wash dry, I clear coat it with flat.

Of course, if it's a civilian model, it's just clear gloss all the way. I learned from Fia, Cris and Jomz that to make deep glossy finishes, several clear gloss coats are needed to add depth, one after the other, letting each coat dry first.

So it really doesn't matter if the surface for the final clear coat is gloss or flat.

Di ba pwedeng after step 1 omit step 2? Will it yield similar results?

SR: Well, it isn't really a "doctrinal procedure" (i.e., a must do), but I prefer to gloss coat my flat before decals - in fact, gloss coat whether it be flat or gloss finish before decalling. The reasons are:

1) to protect the paint - excessive MicroSol will dissolve the paint - especially true if the paint is acrylic;

2) to avoid the "silvering effect" when applying a decal - flat paints are flat because they have minute ridges, there by absorbing light, not reflecting it (they also make flat finishes feel rough to touch). When applying a decal - especially without MicroSol - air pockets will occur beneath the decal over a flat finish, hence it causes a 'silver' effect which can be removed by using MicroSol to further soften the decal and/or pin-prick it to let the air escape and pressing the decal further; and

3) to apply decals with ease. This is corollary really to number 2, a glossy surface means that decals would have better adhesion.

Hence, I clear coat a model with gloss prior to decals. The Porsche received a clear gloss coat before decalling even when the surface was painted with lacquer pink gloss, because I was afraid that the MicroSol would dissolve the paint.

thanks for the info GI

Flex,

If your question is whether the final coat should be gloss or flat, it would be a matter of personal choice. For military subjects the surface should almost always be flat (unless youre building a Phil Army vehicle --- please see thread on V-150 where GI and I get into an off-beat debate about fictional weapons systems.LOL). This is especially true for armored vehicles. The down side is that flat finishes could tend to gather more dust. I usually give a satin (semi-gloss or semi-flat finish) to my aircraft kits to ease in cleaning. Moreover, flat finishes usually mean mixing a flat base onto gloss clear, and too much flat base will leave you with that unsavory "snowed" finish.

Hope this helps.

Buck: even if i use a lacquer based clear coat i would still obtain a snowy finish if used too much??

GI, for me I'm only using hot water for decals only few seconds it adhere nicely as long as the clear gloss was dry 24 hours, its stick faster than the microsol or any decal solutions.

Flex: If you use too much flat clear coat, yes, you will get not only a snowy finish, but also a thick layer of "paint" burying all the detail.

Actually, not even too much flat clear coat CAN give you a snowy finish IF (assuming you are using a flat clear coat from a spray can) 1) the can was not shaken, 2) you do not warm the can up, and/or 3) you sprayed in a high humidity area.

I have had the unfortunate experience of using several Gunze Super Clear Flat spray cans and coming out with a snowy effect on my model. It turns out that I did not shake it that much, or I used it when the humidity was high.

Also, thanks to Fiawrc who told me to give a spraycan a water bath in very warm water (not hot - if your hand can't stand the water bath, then it's too hot for the can) for around 10 to 15 minutes. This will make the propellant/paint/whatever inside flow better. This I did to my Super Clear (Flat) spray can which has been with me for more than six months (complete with rust already) and when I used it, no snowy effect happened on my model.

BTW, mixing flat base with clear gloss is very tricky. There is, AFAIK, no exact formula for such a mixture to come out with a flat coat. You are much better off using a clear flat from a spray can or a dedicated clear flat for an airbrush (i.e., no mixing required - it is already a flat clear liquid. Revell or Humbrol has such a product which JMN sells). Do a wrong mixture, and you get that snowy effect.

As for clear gloss, I have not experienced a snowy effect with too much clear gloss. What happens though is that detail becomes buried, as if encased in glass - which means my application was too thick.

Here's a pretty comprehensive FAQ on paint problems, HTH.

http://www.crosswinds.net/~modelcartech/paintprobs.htm