Hi guys
The other night I was thumbing through some old Civil War books, and had a thought.
Its July 3rd 1863 the third day of the battle of G-burg. Lee has struck on the right, and on the left . Both times he's come close but gets pushed back. Now we know that Lee ordered Gen Picket to attack the center of the Union line, resulting in the loss of that div. Now the what if. Gen Stewert' s cavalry had returned on the 2nd of July. The right side of the union line was known to be week if not open.
What if Lee sends Stewert's Horsmen along with Infantry around the right side of the line, Lee has Picket move out in front of the union forces for all appearence to attack. Cannon fire opens up in the front in support of Picket. While the union forces are watching Picket they get hit by Stewert. As the fight begins Pickets forces charge the center. What do you think would have happened ?
Just a Thought
Wolfsix
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A What if for the civil war buffs
wolfsix
Member Since: September 27, 2003
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Posted: Monday, December 22, 2003 - 03:42 PM UTC
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 08:14 AM UTC
I'll take a crack at this one. The obvious response is that a double envelopment by Pickett and Stuart would have split the Union forces arrayed along Cemetery Ridge. Why didn't it happen? Well, Jeb Stuart was a vain person. He thought people believed him to be less than heroic and staged an eleborate display of his unit prior to their departure for Pennsylvania in an attempt to prove them wrong. Pretty well drove the horses into the ground. The recuperative period for the horses robbed Lee of his reconnaissance element in the early period of 1 and 2 July. When Stuart rejoins Lee, he is told to recon the eastern side of the Union positions seeking a weak point. Stuart swings wide. The Union cavalry is deployed at Hanover. The resulting meeting engagement further delays Stuart from executing his mission. As you know the Union forces hold and Lee beats a retreat to Virginia. I have not reviewed this engagement in a while so I am open and welcome any comments on my summation.
DJ
DJ
warlock0322
Member Since: January 13, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 03:41 PM UTC
I too like DJ haven't read about the battle in a while but I'll take a shot at this also. I don't know if Stewart showing up on the Second would have made much of a differance or not. Yes the right side of the Union line was exposed, but they also held all the high ground.
While Lee's forces on the Emmitsburg Road had a quarter mile of open ground to cross.
Lee had sent Stewart out to recon but as DJ said that was dead on got tangled up at Hanover. Being the vain man he was he felt compelled to attack the Union forces there. This delayed him for days. Thus delaying the much needed info that Lee needed to formulate a plan. Basically Lee fought the battle blindfolded w/o his calvary.
Once Stewart did show up the info he had was days old and of no use to Lee at that time. Nor would it have been any good to him the day before.
It may have prolonged the battle, but I think the results would still have come out with the same results.
Like I said I too haven't read about the battle for a while, I too am curious to hear other viewpoints on this also.
If you want to read an outstanding book about the battle. Get a copy of Shelby Foote's "Stars in Their Courses". It is IMHO the best documented book about the battle out there.
Paul
While Lee's forces on the Emmitsburg Road had a quarter mile of open ground to cross.
Lee had sent Stewart out to recon but as DJ said that was dead on got tangled up at Hanover. Being the vain man he was he felt compelled to attack the Union forces there. This delayed him for days. Thus delaying the much needed info that Lee needed to formulate a plan. Basically Lee fought the battle blindfolded w/o his calvary.
Once Stewart did show up the info he had was days old and of no use to Lee at that time. Nor would it have been any good to him the day before.
It may have prolonged the battle, but I think the results would still have come out with the same results.
Like I said I too haven't read about the battle for a while, I too am curious to hear other viewpoints on this also.
If you want to read an outstanding book about the battle. Get a copy of Shelby Foote's "Stars in Their Courses". It is IMHO the best documented book about the battle out there.
Paul
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 01:38 AM UTC
I'd also pipe in and recommend that anyone seeking information on this battle look up John Buford's actions. He led the Union cavalry in the first fire fight on 1 July. A truly heroic man. By the way, the Southern cavalry leader is JEB Stuart. Just like the M-3 Stuart of WW II. It is not spelt "Stewart." I think that is the English spelling and, if I recall correctly, he is of Scot heritage.
DJ
DJ
blaster76
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Posted: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 06:22 AM UTC
Having had the priveledge of actually walking the terrain (TWICE!!!), the right side was not conducive for Cav operations. It is steep and heavily wooded. I know back then it was probably more so because the nice paved road and all that tree clearing had not occured. So Stuart's cavalry would have had to swing considerably further right than Wolfsix envisions. I think the Union had cavalry out there screening oncoming divisions (don't hold me to this). My take is that it would have been ineffective. I think the big goof up in the battle was Ewell on the second day. If he had coordinated more effectively with Hood on the right, the battle would have gone much differently. Meade would not have been able to compensate with both flanks being attacked simultaneously which is what Lee had wanted to do.
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 06:39 AM UTC
Also, Stuart going to the right exposes him to the artillery on the Round Tops, further compromising his effectiveness. The lay of the land places the union infantry more or less at the base of a series of hills, culminating in those two hills and restricting cavalry from making a move from the rear.
To signficantly change the outcome of 3 July, you have to render ineffctive the Union position. The Confederate cannonade might have done this had they had the correct range and maintained fire as the Rebels crossed the open land. As it was, and with the lay of the land and the built in defense of the rock wall, the Union needs only to wait for the Rebels to get within range and begin decimating the attackers who have no cover whatever.
While the movie Gettysburg gives a very good feel for the area, being there relly brings everything together.
To signficantly change the outcome of 3 July, you have to render ineffctive the Union position. The Confederate cannonade might have done this had they had the correct range and maintained fire as the Rebels crossed the open land. As it was, and with the lay of the land and the built in defense of the rock wall, the Union needs only to wait for the Rebels to get within range and begin decimating the attackers who have no cover whatever.
While the movie Gettysburg gives a very good feel for the area, being there relly brings everything together.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 09:20 AM UTC
I respectfully dispute the observation that Little Round Top offers a view let alone fields of fire to the east of Cemetery Ridge. You can observe and place direct fire on the fields where Pickett emerged from Seminary Ridge. I doubt the vegetation let alone the terrain would allow direct fire. In the Civil War, you do not have artillery providing indirect fire. Aren't you thinking of Culp Hill?
blaster76
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Posted: Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 11:44 AM UTC
I am in total agreement with DJ. Height not withstanding, the Arty on the roundtops was masked. It was good for protecting the base of the Round Tops and that was it (which was quite important in itself. Culps Hill would of required a total reorientation of the guns., but that was the left flank and the proposal was the right flank (taken from the Southern prospective
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 01:54 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi guys
The other night I was thumbing through some old Civil War books, and had a thought.
Its July 3rd 1863 the third day of the battle of G-burg. Lee has struck on the right, and on the left . Both times he's come close but gets pushed back. Now we know that Lee ordered Gen Picket to attack the center of the Union line, resulting in the loss of that div. Now the what if. Gen Stewert' s cavalry had returned on the 2nd of July. The right side of the union line was known to be week if not open.
What if Lee sends Stewert's Horsmen along with Infantry around the right side of the line, Lee has Picket move out in front of the union forces for all appearence to attack. Cannon fire opens up in the front in support of Picket. While the union forces are watching Picket they get hit by Stewert. As the fight begins Pickets forces charge the center. What do you think would have happened ?
Just a Thought
Wolfsix
I read his proposal as a double envelopment. So, if I am correct, then positioning artillery on Little Round Top would have had no effect on the Union right or the Confederate left. Placing artillery on Culp Hill would have placed artillery on the Union right and Confederate left but, as you so correctly point out, that would have been a massive undertaking for a negligible gain. Stuart would have been a passing target if anything. Stuart's attempt to maneuver was negated by the meeting engagement with the Union cavalry in the vicinity of Hanover.
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 04:20 AM UTC
Hope everyone is enjoying a safe holiday break!!! (:-) I have a few comments, and one myth to debunk. First the myth: Lynn was blinded by a lack of cavalry - Stuart left Lee three brigades of cavalry - admittingly not enough, but enough to provide Lee with situational awareness. The problem was that Lee habitually left the use of his cavalry to Stuart, and with Stuart out of the net, he forgot to retake firm control of his remaining cavalry brigades. 
By the third day, Lee's army had shot its bolt, and I believe was incapable of defeating Meade's army. Meade still had at least one full corps that had not been engaged, plus a large artillery reserve with pleny of ammunition. Even with Stuart's cavalry on the field, the Union cavalry outnumbered Stuart's cavalry, was mounted on fresher horses, had developed better tactics, and proved at Brandy Station, that they were now the equal of the Southern Horse! Meade Had more than enough cavalry to both fight Stuart anywhere on the battlefield, but to also watch both flanks and maintain a reserve.
Pickett's Charge should never have happened, it was just a repeat of Malvern Hill during the Seven Day's Battle.
Jeff
By the third day, Lee's army had shot its bolt, and I believe was incapable of defeating Meade's army. Meade still had at least one full corps that had not been engaged, plus a large artillery reserve with pleny of ammunition. Even with Stuart's cavalry on the field, the Union cavalry outnumbered Stuart's cavalry, was mounted on fresher horses, had developed better tactics, and proved at Brandy Station, that they were now the equal of the Southern Horse! Meade Had more than enough cavalry to both fight Stuart anywhere on the battlefield, but to also watch both flanks and maintain a reserve.
Pickett's Charge should never have happened, it was just a repeat of Malvern Hill during the Seven Day's Battle.
Jeff
210cav
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 05:07 AM UTC
Jeff-- I am following you except for the status on the Staurt mounts. My readings indicate that he literally wore out his available horses with the dazzling display en route to Gettysburg. Obviously, you have a different source. Where did you read about the condiiton of his command?
thanks
DJ
thanks
DJ
Ranger74
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 10:58 AM UTC
DJ - I believe you misread my comment, or I used poor grammar. The Yankees definitely had the better horse flesh!
210cav
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 01:47 PM UTC
Jeff--thank you for the clarification.
DJ
DJ
beachbm2
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Posted: Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 10:35 PM UTC
Well the main reason was that Stuarts Cavalry was busy being attacked by Union Cavalry Under Pleasanton and Custer! So He was a Might Busy! Cavalry was good for exploitation but was not a good Idea to use it for attacking entrenched positions with Artillery backing them up. I would say if Stuart would have been foolish enough to try it the South would have been short many Cavalry Billets and would have been looking for many new Horses!
Just My 2 Cents
Jeff Larkin
Just My 2 Cents
Jeff Larkin
210cav
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Posted: Monday, December 29, 2003 - 12:35 AM UTC
Jeff-- The Union forces were hardly in fortified positions. I think the artillery would have decimated any attacking force. The problem was the lack of 360 degree protection. The Union was oriented in one direction. Pickett almost did it.
DJ
DJ
beachbm2
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Posted: Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:36 AM UTC
Sorry 210Cav but Pickett didn't even get close look at where his forces were driven to ground. The latest analysis's of the battle show that the Majority of the Infantry under Picket never Crossed the First Fence before the Emmetsburg Road let alone attempt to force the Union Position (This was done to analyze the lack of Crippling Causalities in the Force). While not fortified as in a blockhouse there were breastworks thrown up and Cavalry was not a Force to attack Breastworks! Cavalry was Used For Recon and Exploitation as it was not equipped to stand against an Infantry force for any time. The best example of this is why Seminary Ridge was Abandoned and Cemetery Ridge became the Focal Point of the Union Defense! Also the stated "What If was not accounting for the Union Cavalry Forces Available or the Infantry Reserves Still Available to The Union Forces. Lets be Honest Lee's Army was spent before the charge and it was a rare Blunder by the Great General, but it was a blunder he should have taken Longstreet's Advice and fought it as a defensive battle from the first day!
PLMP110
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Posted: Monday, December 29, 2003 - 02:52 PM UTC
By no means am I as educated on all the nuances of the commanders and their chosen tactics as you guys, but standing at the Copse of Trees and looking across the field that Picket's men charged is one moving experience. Obviously, if there had been some work done to take down the fence along Emmitsburg Road under the cover of night, I think that the day's battle would have had a different outcome. The terrain on the left below Little Round Top in the Devil's Den and the Slaughter Pen was far from ideal for calvary. It is steep, rocky and heavily wooded. I had the opportunity to tour the battle ground back in August and it is a trip I think everyone should take. No matter which side your forefathers fought on, you will gain a new respect for the men of both the North and the South.
I know I didn't really add to the thread, but I felt I had to chime in.
Patrick
I know I didn't really add to the thread, but I felt I had to chime in.
Patrick
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 03:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Sorry 210Cav but Pickett didn't even get close look at where his forces were driven to ground. The latest analysis's of the battle show that the Majority of the Infantry under Picket never Crossed the First Fence before the Emmetsburg Road let alone attempt to force the Union Position (This was done to analyze the lack of Crippling Causalities in the Force). While not fortified as in a blockhouse there were breastworks thrown up and Cavalry was not a Force to attack Breastworks! Cavalry was Used For Recon and Exploitation as it was not equipped to stand against an Infantry force for any time. The best example of this is why Seminary Ridge was Abandoned and Cemetery Ridge became the Focal Point of the Union Defense! Also the stated "What If was not accounting for the Union Cavalry Forces Available or the Infantry Reserves Still Available to The Union Forces. Lets be Honest Lee's Army was spent before the charge and it was a rare Blunder by the Great General, but it was a blunder he should have taken Longstreet's Advice and fought it as a defensive battle from the first day!
Well, Sir, you have your opinion which I respect and I have mine which I followed in this case. I totally agree with your assessment of Longstreet's advice.....wonder what Jackson would have added to the battle?
blaster76
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Posted: Thursday, January 01, 2004 - 07:57 AM UTC
Dj, I made mention of Ewell's delay of the second day in regard to attacking Culp's Hill. That was Jackson's old Corps. If Jackson would have been there, it would have crashed into the Yankees close to the time Hoods group crashed into Little Round top. Being Southern in my orientation.... I think that would have broken the line resulting in defeat at Gettysburg for Meade. But, with all the rest of the forces that came into the battle later, Meade may have been able to set something else up further east and who knows. Then we would call this the Pennsylvania Campaign instead of just Gettyburg in the History books.
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