if the RAF lost the Battle of Britain the Royal Navy would have been annilated from the air leaving Britain for the taking with the Royal Army in disarray. With Britain Conquered the meditterreanean would be lost, leaving hitler with more divisions for russia and what then.
Burma/India would have fallen before long, freeing up men for the turnipheads to help in New Guinea ultimatly Australia and New Zealand would pack in after a good fight (like all the others). Then what, the US could stop the turnipheads with all its might but what about Europe? If hitler put someone more confident than Goering(old druggie, did you know that?) in command of the luftwaffe then......... Just my thought that interests me from time to time. (++)

The Royal Navy was an extremely powerful force. I don't know if they would have been that easy for the Germans to blow out. Even with us having complete mastery of the seas and air, D-Day was touch and go for us. Don't think Germans could have successfully invaded, if they would have they would have had one devil of a fight hindering their invasion of Russia. I think the US might have been forced to get involved sooner than it did. and the Russians given another year or so would have been a lot more difficult to invade. So bottom line...a lot more American/English deaths, and the Soviets walking away with all the marbles.

Was bedeuten Sie? Nicht verloren sie?

:)

Jim

sorry ich spreche englisch

like blaster says, the royal navy wouldnt have been that easy to defeat,

germany couldnt have invaded england for some time after 1940 because they had ZERO amphibious assault capabilities, meaning all that needs to be built up.

that gives britain plenty of time to prepare, strenghening the already formidable coastal defences, arming civilians etc

the cituation in north africa would have been different, possibly giving germany access to vital oil supplies in the middle east.

the invasion of russia would have probably been delayed, giving them more time to prepare.

any invasion of britain would be very difficult for the germans, britain had the most extensive communication systems and railway network in europe, making coordination of re-enforcement easy. every civilian would ahve access to some form of firearm, meaning an incredible level of resistance.

the US, canada austalia etc would become involved in it almost instantly i beleive,

this all amounts to a war lasting a few years longer, but i dont think the outcome would have been much different

cheers

joe

I think that if the RAF lost the Royal Navy would have had to put to sea and go to Canada as staying in British waters would have been the end. They could have only withstood massive bombing raids for so long before they would have been sunk. Then the invasion would have came. I think the Germans would have had a rough invasion, maybe having to make more than one attempt but they would have won out or forced Britain into a truce.

HastyP

Bren, What is this about Goring being a druggie?, i also read about it in Antony Beevors book the battle for Berlin but it only briefly mentioned it.

Goring was a morphine addict

Thanks for that Blaster its pretty useless info but it was annoying the heck out of me so i had to know.

I have read in some books that Hitler was never serious about invading Britain and was looking towards Russia. I visited the Yorkshire Air Museum a couple of times and they had maps on display which were German. They showed their plan of attack for certain citys in real detail. Also I have seen on TV how the Germans were converting barges to act as landing craft. These preparations were suely not done just on the off chance they would be needed. I would suggest that given the oportunity Hitler would have got his troops acoss the channel at the first chance he got, Britain was at its weakest and Germany at its strongest. As the war progressed Britains millitary growth would be much quicker compared to Germany so 1940 was the best chance for Hitler.

I pretty much agree with all the posts (even though some contradict one another) . There is no doubt in my mind that Great Britain and her Dominions would have put a incredible fight ( as they did).

This forum was just a What if? type of forum.

But if Germany had had sufficent barges early on............

Here's a few pages about Operation Sealion; the German invasion of Britain:

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWsealoin.htm
http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/invasion_ww2_02.shtml
http://www.alternatehistory.com/gateway/essays/Sealion.html

One major problem the Germans faced in 1940, was the same problem faced by the allies in 1944, the WEATHER!!! The Germnas could win air superiority before October 1940, if they had not switched from the RAF to British population. Storms in the Channel, and a dearth of properly located weather forcasting capability for the Germans, made scheduling of the landings risky. The longer nights would help hide the invasion force, but they would also have made it harder for the German invasion force to stay together. The Germans had no experience landing a force from the sea onto a hostile coast.

The Germans also lacked a strong merchant marine and ASW capability. The British submarine force could raise havoc on German efforts to ship is reinforcements and supplies. Germany had a continental military force, and little force projection capability. It tiik almost every Ju-52 they had to invade Crete. They lost many to AAA even though they had air superiority, and had to fly in most of the 5th Mountain Division, as the sea invasion force was turned back by the available Royal Navy ships.

If the invasion had to be postponed until Spring 1941, the British would have restarted their aircraft industry in Scotland and Wales, out of range of teh Luftwaffe, plus the USA wouls have been "selling" aircraft to England, as fast as they could get them to Canada for shipment.

I just don't see the Germans having the capabilty in 1940-41 to launch and maintain what would be a major invasion!!

Then Germany should focus on the Royal Navy while Luftwaffe Paratroopers take key crossing and airfields and await reinforcements from the collected barges of Belgium,France and Holland.
U-boats would be fully active with active air support as was promised by Goring and surround the whole island.
Once a steady foothold on British soil they would have been able to occupy the whole of Britain which meant no Allied controlled platform towards Europe anymore !
War would have been totally different ...
Fact is Britain was near collapse when the Luftwaffe shifted to more civilian targets then RAF targets... .

was it? the RAF was near collapse, not britain,

once german troops landed on british shores, be they airborne or marines, they would have struggled!, read all the information provided by modlrmike,

the south of england would be very hard to invade, and once they got to the midlands and the north, its even worse, and thats just the terrain,

cheers

joe

Corquering Great Britain would not have been as easy as it may sound with the RAF out of the way. At this point in the war, the German U-boat was still relatively small and to close off the British Isles, would have meant stopping all other submarine activities. The German Navy was incapable in 1940 of isolating the Islands, and they were mainly a fleet of raiders, not a battle fleet like the navies of England, the USA and Japan.

Remeber what happened in the Pacific and at Normandy. The Allies has air supremecy, not just superiority, at places like Iwo Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Normandy and all were relatively long struggles. England also has major cities, something the Pacific Islands and Normandy lacked. Urban warfare such as Leningrad, Stalingrad and Berlin were exceedingly costly in casualities, resources and most importantly time. The Germans had neither the time nor the resources for an extended campaign.

One question for everyone: Would a German invasion of England bring teh US into teh war in 1940? All we would have to contribute immediately would be our Navy and maybe a small tactical airforce. But we did have 7-8 battleships and 2-3 carriers in the Atlantic.

Jeff

Hitler was never really serious about invading Britan, it is stated in several books about his life that he felt the British and Germans were ment to be allies, a big part of why he went ahead and invaded Poland was his diplomatic advisor Von Ribbontrop who was the main go-between with Germany and Britan felt he knew the British would not really go to war over Poland and Germany would get back much of the land lost to the treaty of versailles.

but to the invasion, ok on June 16, 1940 Hitler issued Fuhrer Directive No.16 it stated "Since England, in spite of her hopeless military situation, shows no signs of being ready to come to an understanding, I have decided to PREPARE a landing operation against England and, IF NECESSARY, to carry it out. The aim of this operation will be to eliminate the English homeland as a base for the prosectuion of the war against Germany, and, IF NECESSARY, TO OCCUPY IT." the caps are mine.

I believe that all that took place at Dunkirk, as in the victorious Panzer armies being ordered to hold their positions and not to drive the British and French armies into the sea, which they could have easily done, as the enemy was completely routed and on the run, but they held up and allowed 335,000 troops to be evacuated to safety in England. why was this done? Immedeiatly following the end of the evacuation Hitler sent through diplomatic channels an offer of peace to the English, which of course was refused, but it was still offered, I think that says volumes about Hitlers motives towards invading Britan. It is also stated in Hitlers biography that he is quoted as saying "now what do we do?" when he was told that France and Britan had declared war on Germany.

as for operation Sea Lion, if the battle of Britan was won by the Germans and they gained control of the air, the sea born assult would have been carried out with the germans laying vast minefields on either side of the landing beaches to hold the british warships away while the luftwaffe pounded anything that came close. If William the Conqueror could sail from normandy in 1066 and win the battle of Hastings than Germany in the 1940s could also have pulled it off.

Not really, William of Normandy had a lot moer going for him than Hitler did, superior mounted combat (that did not win Hastings for him!) larger army (still didn't win against the Saxon shield wall)
What won hastings for William was the lucky shot that killed Harold, and the poor dicipline and exhaustion form fighting the Vikings at Stamford Bridge in the Saxon ranks.
Had there been a proper raising of the fyrd (which could not be done due to the time of year and the fact that the fyrd had been on stand-by for so long due to Viking threats) William probably would have lost the battle, his life and England would still be speaking Auld Anglishe.
By the same token the Germans could never have conquered England, since it was not up to one batle like in 1066. The people would have fought on the shores and beaches as Churchill had said, and even if the British isles could have been isolated the US Fleet would have broken that with our carrier fleet, as FDR had already promised Churchill to enter the war in case of British invasion.
Realistically as earlier stated, Germany could not have invaded England before 1941(weather and the like) and by them with Lend-lease and the US Neutrality Patrols we were already commited to keeping England from being conquered.
Then there is geography, even if the Germans had taken the south, even the central midlands, could they have taken Wales, let alone Scotland? I don't think so. After all look what happened to the Germans in Yugoslavia. What about the paratroops? Germany barely had a division of them in 1940/1 and it took them all to capture Crete as said earlier, but England?
Napoleon had a better chance in 1805.

sorry if I didnt clarify my point, obviously I didnt think or mean the Germans could have won England with just one fight,what I ment by bringing up William was his sucessful crossing of the channel, Im sure that since the Germans had such a hard time clearing the British and French and the rest of western Europe out of western Europe, then once they landed on the island there is no way possible that they could have taken England in 1940, rember that the Americans didnt have a whole lot in the way of help there or on the way in 40 or 41, but that is a whole 'nother debate. Im also not sure about German/ Yougoslav connection, are you talking about the end of the war when they flip-flopped over to the russian side?

I believe Bravo1102's remark concerning Yugoslavia, was the fact that the Germans conquered Belgrade and parts of Yugoslavia, but there were parts of the country that they and their allies were never able to subdue. Yugoslavia and Greece were festering wounds, sucking in more troops, fuel, ammunition, etc., until the Germans were forced to evacuate both due to the Russian advances. The United Kingdom would become another sucking chest wound.

Your comment that the US did not have much to offer in 1940/41 is party correct. The US was only able to get the 1st Infantry Division to full deployable strength - the mobilizations of 1939 and 1940 restricited the deployment of the National Guard and other mobilized personnel to service in the Western Hemisphere ONLY!! However, the USAAC was rapidly reequipping, and the US was a major supplier of aircraft to Great Britain, albiet most were used for coastal patrol, training or in less critical theaters - they did free up Spitfires an Hurricanes for use in the Home Islands. Also the US Navy was the second largest in the world prior to Pearl Harbor with 8 battleships. and 2-3 carriers in the Atlantic - it would not be a pushover.

In 1066, William of Normandy and his men were only four generations removed from the best sea farers of the Middle Ages: the Norwegian Vikings and had a great technological invention on a par with the Aliies' specialty invasion craft: the clinker-built keel-laid ship.
The Germans in 1940/1 had no such talent nor technological edge in sea faring.

Even Napoleon had Robert Fulton offering him submarines and steam ships.

You should also remember that William waited over 6 months for the right weather, and had to settle for the same kind of iffy weather that Eisenhower would settle for in June of 1944. Like Ike , William HAD to go when he did because of the Norwegian invasion of Harald Hardraata and the threats from his Breton allies to desert him.

Even Hastings in the end was not the complete victory that history has portrayed it as. William I spent until 1080 or so quelling rebellions in his new kingdom, and only then could he launch the Domesday Book to take count of his new kingdom.

As for the US Navy, Wildcats in Royal Navy use in the Med were quite effective IIRC against the Luftwaffe, and in 1941 they would have been facing Me109Es.

The loss of the RAF would enable the Germans (no doubt) to achieve air superiority over British skies. The Royal Navy could do little. I don't think the Brits (please correct me if I'm wrong) have a sizeable fleet of CV's so far, the only one I know was the Ark Royal.

I am reminded of the sinking of the Prince of Wales and Repulse by Japanese aircraft. The Luftwaffe would have had a field day attacking them before moving on to invading the British isles.

The British might have resorted to guerilla warfare like the rest of Europe. The Royal Family might have relocated to Canada or the US and continue the fight over there.

Hmmm if the RAF lost...Churchill would be the first one on the shore waiting for the Germans, cigar in one hand and pistol in the other Anything is possible but I think that England was just not an easy nut to crack. As it was stated before Germany lacked the means and the civilians and defenders would fend off any army that made it ashore.

Sean

True enough. AS the other fellas said, terrain is one factor. Wales and Scotland have rugged terrain which would negate the use of the vaunted German panzers (assuming of course, they are deployed). And The British have a history of resistance as well dating back to the time of the Romans. Who could ever forget the hardy and resilient Scots of William Wallace and Robert Bruce who defeated a more sophisticated English army (but that's another story). History would be used to stir up patriotic sentiments among the populace. This is similar to what the Russians did reminding their people how Alexander Nevsky turned back the mighty German knights as they attempted to invade Russia in the Middle Ages. If they did it before, they can do it again.

Undoubtedly, the Britis would not make it easy for the Germans if ever they did try to hit the British shores.

Wasn't it Hitler's lack of confidence on the German Navy, its surface fleet to be exact, that Sealion was never executed. It's also the reason why the Luftwaffe bore the brunt of the battle.

But then again how many major surface ships did the German Navy had in its peak?

BTW, while Goering was a junkie, Hitler , it was said, was a BDSM afficionado #:-)

I thought this forum was long since dead! now a few months later its walking with the living! weird