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Modeling in General: Advice on...
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Airbrushing
diseasedspawn
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - 07:14 AM UTC
Hey guys,

I'm fairly comfortable airbrushing enamels but am attempting acrylics now and they are being cantankerous

It's either the gun wont pick the paint up or when it does spray it just turns into a watery mess!

I was just able to make it somewhat work by tilting the airbrush to the side so that the paint flows directly into the path of the air and then is sprayed out (I have a bottom feeding gun, Badger No. 150). Got pretty good results but I need more control over my spray so this aint cutting it.

Please help!

I am using model master acrylic and the proprietary thinner No. 50496 as is suggested by the paint bottles. I have tried all levels of thinning; "2% milk", 1:1, everything in between and on either side. What the heck is my problem?
mat
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - 07:57 AM UTC
this sonds like my story a few years ago. I think the bottom feed AB is just not as forgiving as a top feed. When I switched to a Badger 100 ALL my Ab problems were gone.

my theory is that a bottom feed has to suck harder to get the paint out of the yar. Paint too thick won't go up, so you spray nothing. So you thin your paint, use enough of pressure and wen it reaches the nozzles there is too much power behind it and you get a watery mess on you model. The only way I could manage the problems was mixing my paints outside the AB cup so they get mixed properly, and keeping my AB very clean. My test was always with just water. If the AB works fine with just water, and not with paint, the paint is the problem. Otherwise something is wrong with the AB.
Grauwolf
#084
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - 11:36 AM UTC
Hello Mark,

At what pressure are you trying to spray?
diseasedspawn
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Posted: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 - 03:51 PM UTC
Mat: coming to the same conclusion. Think my next AB will be a top feed. Water and really thin paint works just fine. Kinda nervous if I need to mix paint outside the cup since I am working on a human figure 1/6 and need to be able to mix paint in the cup to work with all the subtle shifts in color of human skin. Don't really have the money for a new AB right now

Grauwolf: I spray enamels at 30psi but I have heard that spraying at 20psi gives better control and a better result so I tried that but that didn't work. I thinned some more and just got a fine wet mist slightly the color I wanted. I thickened the paint but then suction wasn't enough. Ended up spraying at 40 psi while tilting the AB to flow the paint into the air stream.

Are acrylics more sensitive than enamels? I have always heard that enamels need to be thinned to resemble 2% milk. Are acrylics different?
Grauwolf
#084
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Posted: Thursday, June 06, 2013 - 03:58 AM UTC
Hello Mark,

The consistency of milk is right.......40PSI....WOW.

I don't ever recall using thathigh a PSI to spray.

If it is all coming out watery, I think that firstly
your PSI is to high and you may be carrying moisture
into the AB at this point.

Do you have a moisture trap?

Also what needle tip combo are you using.

I myself have never had problems with the 150 and
acyrilcs at 18-25 PSI thinned to milk consistency
with a mediun needle. You must note that acylics
do dry at the tip much faster than enamels. Keep
a wet cotton swab dipped in thinner close by
and clean tip a few times during your spray session.

What is probably happening is paint is drying at the
tip causing you to crank up the pressure and eventually
it all come shooting out to fast.

Finally, mixing paint in the cup has never been a good
idea, in my opinion.

Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Joe
DrButterfingers
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Posted: Thursday, June 06, 2013 - 05:30 AM UTC
Hmm..
Bottom feed brush will lose about 8 psi to suction/action etc. If you have a regulator... I never go above 25PSI with an Iwata siphon (side) feed.

If very close to the figure, even with a siphon feed I'd try to get regulator down to 15PSI, effective should be around 10PSI.
This uses very thin paint. Especially if layering paint in glazes/ shading a figure.

#2:
Clean paint cups or try new ones. By clean I mean feed a wire through the entire cup, verify it's open. If dried acrylic paint, you need a cleaner they will dissolve that. Most airbrush cleaners, windex and isopropyl will not do that well on dried paint in the siphon cup. I use an artist product that dissolves any acrylic paint.

3# what size nozzle is in this AB? I have everything BUT a badger...sorry. This also sounds like a nozzle size/ paint viscosity mismatch.
diseasedspawn
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Posted: Thursday, June 06, 2013 - 06:05 AM UTC
Grauwolf: I forgot that acrylics dry on the tip faster so that could be it. Also the higher psi I assume makes the drying issue worse. I do have a moister trap on my compressor as well as one for the hose. Didn't have the hose trap connected this go around (wont get into that story) but will reconnect it and see what happens...I understand your reservations about mixing in the cup but having to stop, clean the AB, mix the next shade of flesh, then do it over again, would be too time consuming. I do that with planes and vehicles but human skin is too varied. Need a faster transfer methodology.

Butterfingers: wow...embarrassed to say I didn't consider nozzle sight . I am using the widest nozzle/needle combo I have. Can't tell you the size since they are not marked. I used the largest nozzle because I was spraying such a large area. I have had issues in the past using a small nozzle to do a lot of spraying because then I feel a desire to pull away for greater coverage area, but then I get the orange peel effect. Also, if its the nozzle width then for what can I use the widest nozzle? That would make it a useless bit of metal.
diseasedspawn
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Posted: Thursday, June 06, 2013 - 01:42 PM UTC
Did an experiment. A smaller nozzle helped. Allowed me to spray at 20 psi.

Got some pretty good results though cover wasn't too good and it quickly built up into drippyness if I wasn't careful. Results were better when I thinned LESS, almost not thinning at all.

Any further helpful hints? Remember I am experienced with enamels so I keep expecting the experience to be similar
DrButterfingers
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Posted: Thursday, June 06, 2013 - 04:53 PM UTC
Well.. I'm going to guess here. I'm having a little difficulty figuring out the precise events here. So with this 1:6 figure - Dragon/GI JOE size, painting the flesh to me is still a small area. A siphon feed is just fine!

Issue 1: Airbrush function - is your paint feeding better? I use siphon feeds all the time, they are not a limitation for this type of work. Please verify you're using new siphon cups or that these are perfectly clean. If there is resistance to the upflow of paint and the brush is having to draw paint through a high resistance system, the result will be inconsistent, sputtering & start/stopping. It sounds like things are feeding a little better with the new needle/nozzle set. For this size work 0.3-0.35mm nozzle and needle sets would be good. 0.2mm etc are for fine lines. If flow is improved, this is good. Milk consistency or little thinner (eyeball...) should work for ~0.3mm nozzles.

I noticed you're using Acryl. I've used that paint successfully for all sorts of painting in the past. Tips: Stir or shake the crap out of that stuff. Acrylics, esp Testors settle quickly, like enamel "sludge." Sludge no go through semi-clogged cups or 0.3mm nozzles. I have a paint shaker. Some people chuck bent wire into a dremel on LOW SPEED! But the paint needs serious mixing for upclose and personal airbrushing like this.

Problem #2: Acryl is NOT like an enamel. Thinners for acylics lower VISCOSITY. They also tend to hasten DRYING. Something I have noticed. Tamiya is great at that game too.

It sounds like you are attempting to apply wet-on-wet coats of paint. Acrylics, unlike enamels tend to dry in a shell/film and don't really like wet-on-wet. Disturbing the undercoat with high pressure new paint will peel the layers and make a very inconsistent finish. If you are fast, paint the one shade you want. Let cure for ... 5-10min...total wild guess. Hot lights can help. Then low - 10PSI with well thinned paint could be applied for highlights etc. Between coats, I would totally flush the brush with soapy water, then water and leave water in the brush. Add/change your color in the cup then start the next coat. I'd only try this like 2-3 times in a session. I don't know how many coats you want to apply.

I do not have exact experience with Acryl but I would attempt to use a retarding agent that slows drying in the base color so it wont form clots on the tip of the brush and work more like enamels. Liquitex, GOLDEN, Amsterdam? are available. Liquitex should be ok, I use GOLDEN. Re-reading the post- the wet mess sounds like too much paint. Acylics are all about layers. I prime large scale figures in BLACK! It may take 10+ thin airbrushings of acrylic for the base color alone. I use a retarder in the base color, take the bottle in and out of the brush, it doesn't clog up that quick (if sealed bottle). I use vallejo these days, acryl in the past and they take about 10min for a good cure, then overcoat. DON'T rush the drying, it can turn into the fluid mess. These may help with your wet-on-wet applications.

Summary, I don't think it is feasible to base coat in thin layers, shade with a couple colors and highlight with colors in one session. I would get a fantastic base coat in thin layers. Leave for day, maybe seal with a good semigloss varnish to protect from future applications. Then do shadowing/highlights. Acrylics (especially aibrushed) don't blend wet-on-wet like enamels, oils or water-miscible oils (brush techniques). The "blended" effect on acrylic figures is more about what you actually are doing which is multiple different shades applied in succession. 1:6 is going to require lots - but that is from the expert miniaturist side of the world - NOT ME! I'd like to see a nice basecoat, simple and effective shadows and highlights executed very well. No, it won't look like some of the insane box-art from Andrea miniatures... but it won't look like a messy attempt at what the experts do.

This is learning new paint, new chemistry on a difficult subject - a figure!

best of luck.
diseasedspawn
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Posted: Friday, June 07, 2013 - 02:14 PM UTC
OK guys, starting to feel confident

Lowered to 20psi, mixing paint outside the cup, thinning only 10-20% thinner. Tried wiping nozzle when airflow decreases but I seem to merely push the dried paint down into the nozzle. No worries, I just take the front of the nozzle off (my nozzles come in two pieces. Not sure if that is normal or not) and puncture open with a toothpick before returning it to the AB. Works well so far.

Thanks for your insights and tutelage

Dr Butterfingers: yeah, the figure will require many coats as human skin is colored by melanin, high and low area, and the colors of clothes worn. Will post pics in the Pre-Flight Check forum once done
Grauwolf
#084
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Posted: Friday, June 07, 2013 - 02:51 PM UTC
Hi Mark,
Glad to hear its starting to work out.

Avoid the tooth pick!......may damage the airbrush tip.

Use this or the likes.....dental proxy brushes, to clean
the airbrush.....they come in many sizes.

http://lakeforestdentalarts.co/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/rsz_interdental_brush.jpg

Cheers
Joe
diseasedspawn
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Posted: Friday, June 07, 2013 - 03:20 PM UTC
Grauwolf: Yeah I was worried about that too. Will get these brushes. Rather be safe then pay $200 for a new airbrush just because my nozzle gets mangled. Thanks for the heads up!
diseasedspawn
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Posted: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 - 06:58 AM UTC
hey guys, this is what you helped me create. Thanks for all your advice and knowledge. Hope you like her.

http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/showgallery.php?cat=28479
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