Something historical happened this week : Russia joined NATO.
I wonder how you feel about it !
Even if the number of nukes has been reduced a lot (and that's going to continue) there's still a hughe
number turned towards the west.
Human rightq are not very well accepted...
The war goind on in Chechnya is absolutely horrible...
Is the country realy democratic ?

OK, that's a lot now and should give us a good talk !

My Thoughts are....."NOT FOR LONG" They'll find an excuse to bail out some time in the near future.


DAGGER-1 "When Science Fails, Brute Force Wins"

I for one hope that Russia in NATO works out. As an American, it would be nice to see us become friends and mutually help each other out against the two biggest threats to our nations, Terrorism and China. It seems that our leaders (Bush and Putin) can get along, why not our peoples. I would like nothing more than to see Russia get back on its feet and become a valued friend to the West. It would certainly benefit both sides.

I agree with you too. I've often pondered, during the dark days of the Cold War, what-if's like the US and Russia working together on the same side. I admit to images of a Soviet Kirov Class Battlecruisers and American AEGIS Class ships in formation in a Task Force with US Nuclear Aircraft Carriers. I've even done that in simulation games - what a potentially awesome force that made - militarily and politically. I could go on and on, it's almost scary to ponder.

England's greatest foe, if you subscribe to James Bond, has been Russia. What if that never came to pass, or is no longer true. Would China be as big of a threat to us or anyone else? Would Terrorism hold the same dark grip on that world? Would there be a world-level aggressor at all? Or, would this become a tyrannical hegemony in itself, with nothing to check its military and political power?

Things to consider over a cup of coffee on a fine Friday morning...

Gunnie

You crazy west coast folks! It's not Friday morning, its time for lunch now! :-)

Don't I wish that was true for me!

Gunnie

It's China, China, China. Even though all those Russian weapons are still a huge problem...

In many ways China has the potential to be more powerfull and dangerous than the USSR ever was.

They have a huge, homogenous population with a rubust, growing economy. And located in a very differnt geographical area than Russia. Very skilled and dedicated workers. Great tech know how, etc. Soon to put men into space and even on the moon... Already China is the world's third largest nuclear delivery system.

One thing is very different between our relations with the USSR and China. I don't think there was a strong hatred directly between the pople of the US or the USSR. I think there was, and is, a general feeling that the people were pretty much the same. It was more of a struggle between political ideologies (communism/socialism vs. demoracy).

This may not be true with China. Unfortunately, race and race hatred is still a big motivator in the world. It may be easier for the US and China to hate each other in a very fundemental way because of the obvious physical/cultural differences. Even though religion was not a part of the USSR (at least not officially) the people were mostly Christian and not as "alien" as other Easteners. (Or as "alien" as Westerners are to Asians.)

Just look back to WWII and look at the propganda in the US. It was much easier to make enemies of the Japanese than the Germans or Italians. Why did we intern the Japanese and not the German or Italian Americans? Of course Pearl Harbor, but race surely came into play as well. And, look at the race hatred and fear of the Americans on the Japanese side of things.

Just something to consider...

Steve

I agree with all the posts. Russia would make a good Nato buddy. As for China they make good models plus could put so many people under arms that it would allmost impossible to fight them with our little force that we have right now even with the best soliders and equiptment just too darn many of them. We need a bigger Military to confront a country of this size.[especially with our forces strung out all over the place] But remember the spy plane that crashed their they did let us take it out of their, in pieces but still they let us have it. Maybe China is not such a bad bird after all. I have no hatred of China, they are a lot older then us go back how many centuries. Made some kick butt chairs no glue just fitted joints. still around after 8 or 9 centuries.
Enjoy the weekend

im glad they are in,i hope it works out,i have many russian friends and they are good people

I agree with the China assessment But I not hot on russia being a member of
NATO. China and Russia share a common border if they get into it we are going
to be there {now by treaty} Macarther said never get into a fight on the asian
landmass Are we nuts or what??????
Even with all the nato pieces in place there is still not enough there to
make china back down. Then comes the nukes???? A viable senerio.

ponysoldier

There is another thread that fits here. RUSSIA has more oil that the house of saud.
Maybe now we know why . That would throw the middle east into a fit.
more gas on the fire ?? Its all real and fits think about it. Now about that
coffee.

ponysoldier

nice, we won't be lobbing missiles at each other any more. maybe we'll have some decent Russian tank kit models now.

Well, I say the more people we have on our side, the better. Hopefully, all countries will be members of NATO one day. You can't have a fight if everybody is in your corner . I've been lucky enough to travel widely in my time. I can honestly say I've never sat down and talked with another human being who didn't want the same damn thing I did. To live out a peaceful life, provide for my family, have a few laughs, and check out in my sleep. If we could figure out a way to get along without politics, I think people just might be a whole lot better off.

And now, I will step off my soapbox.. .
Mike

I'm confused.

Russia joining NATO....ok. I like the thought of living a nice and happy life, were everybody gets a long real fine. We're one happy family now and war belongs to the past. We work together on reducing nuclear weapons and together we have all the oil in the world. Days of fear are now just part of history........

And then..............I woke up.

HELLO.......we're talking real life here. Sure I would like the scenario above to be real, but let's face things......Russia isn't the most stable part in the world. Things can get ugly with one of Russia's neighbours before you can blink your eyes. Chechnya is one thing to consider but have we all forgotten about Afghanistan ??? Democratic ? Yes Jim, but not as we know it......

And have you seen the piles of chemical and nuclear waste ? The storage is not what I call hopefull for the near future. Don't hope our NATO boys are going to be involved in cleaning up.

My opinion ? Let's work together and let's join hands. Let's try to make this world a better place, but maybe some other partnership than NATO would have been better.

An assault on one member of NATO will be considered as an assault on all partners of NATO...... Let's hope that sentence in the NATO handbook doesn't involve us all in some Russian backyard fight.

You don't have to worry about that happening, at least in the near term. They are not a full member of NATO yet. They have some voting rights, but they are not included in that part of the pact and they don't have any say in a vote for NATO to go to war or vote new members in. This move was more to appease them because NATO is taking in 3 former Soviet Baltic republics which had them pretty pissed. The fighting on the Russian side piece of the puzzle is still years away if ever.

This world no longer meets the conditions NATO was created for.

Today, world peace is facing new threats : an emerging new world power (China), two countries wielding nukes over Kashmir, the never-ending saga of arabs vs. Israel, and then there's a new generation of assorted terrorists that emerged last year.

A solution to these threats - each of which if enough to ****-up the future of this planet big time - can never be found if East and West don't bury the hatchet. And both have a lot to lose if we don't play our cards right.

The world has never been a more interesting place than it is today !


Jan

The world's never been a more dangerous place than it is today!

Technology has given wackos the ability to kill millions. If the several thousand dead in NYC seems like a high number, wait until someone gets a nuke or truck load of nerve gas into the US.

At least in Russia they have some sort of checks and balances in place to help prevent a conflict from getting out of hand. It's not in their interest to start some war nobody can win.

A terrorist or rogue group on the other hand has nothing to lose by killing lots of innocents. That's what they want to do.

It seems that allowing Russia to enter NATO kind of makes NATO archaic. Wasn't NATO created to protect Europe and the US from the USSR? Is allowing Russia to be a NATO member an acknowledgement that it's now China that poses the biggest threat to the free world?

Steve

I an unlikely conflict with China, the Russians wouldn't make a difference. The Russians have the same tactical problems with their army as the Chinese have. Kill the leader and the units just act like Lemmings. Why are our Special Ops so effective? Because they can act in groups as well as they can as individuals. Killing a leader doesn't slow down the entire goup.

I have to disagree with your assessment of the Chinese. They are not the Russians. Completely different societies. To suggest that they would fall apart vastly underestimates them.

Also, from what I have been reading, it seems that a conflict there may become more likely and that the US/China relationship will be the determining politics in the 21st century.

One more thing, our special forces are only a small percentage of the US military. Sure, it seems they can act independently (they have been traind to think that way) but what about the regular services? I think our military is the greatest in the world but I don't think we should underestimate anyone. Consider the Russians in Afghanistan...

Steve

Well, I can justify my time on the site now by saying I'm studying foriegn affairs 101!!! (I think I spelled at least one word wrong back there...) Interesting discussion. Maybe someday I'll be able to point out something useful. For now, I'll just sink back into the shadows and listen......

YodaMan

I believe that Russian joining NATO, even in a selected state, is a great thing.

well.........there goes the neighborhood

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