I heard on the Friday news that Europe, under the leadership of France and Germany, wants to challenge the USA as a military superpower. Europe is an economic powerhouse, but what does it need to become a global military superpower? I don't see much power projection capability in Europe - limited naval forces with susainment for establishment and maintenance of lines of communications (LOC), very small strategic air forces with very limited strategic airlift, and few overseas staging bases. What say ye!

I cant give any comment on that cause I would get chewed out.

but I think europe van be a new super power
its about bloody time anyway

hehe.... your not gonna drag me into this either ..... I still got blisters on my hands from a similar subject I touched some time ago

No more yes-no discussions for the Eagle.

And whatever will be posted after this post..... please be gentle for eachother and remember 1 thing.... this is a modeling site...please treat it that way....with respect !

and now I got to run....I've got a Campaign to lead... #:-)

Hmm....this would appear to be a current events topics no?

::grumble, grumble::

im not sure if i should add to this discussion,
current events arnt really allowed are they,
and i would probably upset a good deal of the european members of the site,
and by the way,
im not european-im BRITISH-and bloody proud of it too.
cheers
joe

Well, sometimes it looks like the History Forum contains a group of active people awaiting the firing of the race pistol to start running. People want to discuss Current Events. In this regard, we are presented a very appropriate topic which I see many declining to discuss. Very unfortunate. Now, I have the authority to close down an unruly discussion. It is an option I have never used in my two plus years of moderating. Feel free to express your well reasoned argument on the topic. In regards to my Ranger Buddy's topic, I say that Europe has always sought a more visible role in world affairs. We errored in many ways from the strategic to the tactical level in our current Iraq operations. This is to be expected, but we did not sit and twiddle our thumbs. The danger of doing nothing was too great. I am proud of my Country. The British support of these action has been nothing short of heroic in my opinion. The political flak that Blair has withstood is a sight to behold. The view that Europe is anti-American is simply wrong. Most European governments fully support and supply troops and equipment to the operation. France is well France. To be different and difficult is a social trait they will not soon disgard. They use a diplomatic expression which I always find revealing. It is to "negotiate in all directions." You can not be "wrong" if you operate in this manner. They are your principal adversaries in anything the US does or contemplates. We've done fine without them. And, that drives them nuts.
DJ

Ranger, I saw that report, on Fox News wasn't it? Without being the least bit current affaired let me just give a little bit on the historical background. This has always been a dream of France and Germany, to create a european military force (outside NATO). It has constantly been rejected by the vast majority of european member states as being A) unnecessary
b) too expensive c) we are members of NATO anyway...etc, etc. d) it could create a Franco-German axis in europe. I'm not saying anymore sufficient to say, this idea is dragged out every few years and nothing ever comes of it.... Jim (being nicely non-committal)

well said 210cav,
i have decided to add my thoughts on this, but i am sure many may not like them,
i am very disturbed by the ideas of the french and german governments regarding making europe a superpower.
i am totally against all their aims, and whole heartedly disagree with the EU in general,
and i am not the only british person to thing like this i can asure you.

the british people were conned into joining the EU, believing it was to be a trading organisation. this is obviously not what the europeans had in mind.
the EU is to blame for a lot of the problems with british society at the moment.

the EU convention on human rights prevents us from effectively dealing with the illegal immagrants that are crippling this country.
we are not allowed to remove them immediately, or even imprison them until it has been ascertained who they are, or for what purpose they have entered this country.
for all we know they could be terrorists or anyone.

EU rules on trade prevent us from dealing with non EU nations,
nations such as the USA and commonwealth which provide a far greater market than the EU.

EU rules on defence procurement lead us into costly, time consuming projects, that are either cancelled, or end up crap.
many of our new weapons systems will be out of date by the time they enter service,
eurofighter is a prime example.
however the jsf on the other hand, designed in partner ship with america is ahead of schedule, and im sure will be a far superior aircraft.

the british economy pays billions into the EU in order to subsidise the economies of other countries, which i and ever other british persons taxes pay for.

the common acricultural policy is an absolute joke!
british farmers go out of buisiness every day because they have to grow what some fool in brussels says we need to have more of, yet huge stockpiles of excess food go's to waste .
if farmers were allowed to grow what people in this country actually want then there wouldnt be any problem.

the idea of a single currancy is one of the most rediculous things ive ever heard, and the only reason that europe wants us to be a part of it is beacause it is doomed to fail without us. they need britain as the 4th most powerful economy in the world, to stabilise it, and provide yet more money to subsidise the rest of europe.

if given the opportunity im sure the vast majority of britons would vote to pull out of the EU,
and personally i reckon we would prosper wihout it.

thats my rant over with
cheers
joe

GreatBrit - DJ may shoot me for this, but here goes: The EU trade rules and agri-rules remind me of rules of an eastern eurpopean empire that collapsed about 15 years ago!! Now this does fall into history, doesn't it

yeah i suppose it does then!
it really is ludicrous isnt it.
cheers
joe

Joe-- Appreciate your perspective. Alright, so where is the commercial value of the EU? Are you beter off with the economic aspects of the Union? Second point, why has the EU become a military structure? What happened to NATO?
DJ

thanks 210cav,
firstly britain would be better off economically without the EU, the british economy pays a massive ammount of money to them to subsidise the economies of those countries that arent doing as well, ireland, eastern european nations etc.
under EU trading rules, only a certain percentage of exports can go to non-EU countries.
this stifles trade with the USA and the commonwealth, markets where britain could do much better.

the EU isnt a military structure, it wants to be, or more accurately the french and germans want to be, as they know they have very little influence over NATO.
they are largely behind the plans to create and EU army.
which rather worryingly would place British troops under command of german officers.
and after the well publisised remarks of a german general whose name escapes me,
i am horrified by the thought of any foreign command of british troops(other than that of the US, a proven ally)

i just hope that idiot blair doesnt get his wishes to get us into the planned EU army.
and definately not forcing the Euro on us.
the sooner him and brown go to the tower the better!
cheers
joe

Joe--as always I appreciate the perspective you bring to our discussions. I am going to start a new thread to piggyback off of this one on NATO. Let's see if we can get our fellow modelers to contribute....
thanks again
DJ

Hey Joe,

I'm right with you on this one, though I've been almost shot for it (verbally of course) on more than one occassion. I have no argument with the people of Europe, but when one government wishes to control the people of another nation then it cannot work.
Economically, we used to have an organisation called EFTA - European Free Trade Association which gave preferential customs duty etc. if trading between members - this was scrapped because it worked fairly for all members, something that the EU can't abide! I used to buy from a company in France, and on asking how they kept their prices so low was informed that they received a subsidy from a government organisation to enable them to undercut other european competition ! Illegal under EU law.
Historically also these superpowers cannot work, witness the Soviet Union which got poorer the larger it got, with ever more convoluted governmental system, and our own 'Empire' which became almost despotic in some areas. Each nation also has it's own 'personalities' which cannot be overrun by signatures on paper.

I also got into trouble for reminding the government ( by email to their party HQ) that any man who surrenders any part of his nations governmental systems to another country is by definition a traitor, and we used to have a very good deterent for this kind of activity - a boat trip on the Thames early one morning, through the side gate of the Tower of London for an appointment with a masked man with a penchant for delivering very short haircuts with a larger axe!

There is a visible realignment going on within Europe at this moment. The expansion o fthe EU has brought into it more eastern european countries who understand what freedom actually is. This realignment also includes Spain, who for the first time in decades is following a sensible foreign policy posture, i.e. the old anti-americanism is out (apart from the socialists) and the kow-towing to France and Germany has been consigned to the dustbin of history. A much more healthy state of affairs...JIm

Jim--- your comment on Spain hit a chord. Those folks are of great assistance in the war on terrorism. They willingly participated in stopping and boarding a North Korean merchant vessel loaded with SCUD missiles in the Red Sea then sent troops to Iraq. My hats off to those guys as it is to the Dutch who participate in a host of support and combat operations in Bosnia.
We are not alone in this war.
DJ

I think we also got some support from Italy as well. I read an interesting book a couple of years back where the US went to war against a German/French coalition. The French at the end turned on the Germans. Having lived in Europe a number of years, I quite honestly am disappointed in the Germans for their current anti Americanism. The French, well they have always treated Americans as upstarts. Before anyone takes off on this, I am speaking politically not generally. This attitude showed itself in the speeches made prior to the Iraq conflict when the French rep to the UN started off that France was an "old" country.

I had not thought about the Germans in the light you put forth. But, I think I share your disappointment in their not being a more resolute partner in our Iraq endeavor.