We remain in Germany and Japan long after the cessation of hostilities. We are still in Korea. So, using this historical perspective, we should be able to analyze and discuss post war Iraq. How do you see us transferring authority back to an Iraqui government body? How long will it take?
thanks
DJ

Interestingly, I'm in general agreement with the Europeans and French on the timetable. I'd love to see it happen (transfer of governmental authority and Constitution) between 6 and 12 months from now. I'm just not sure how that's going to happen - and if so, of what quality and value would it be to the Iraqi people.

Sure, the resources and money is there for rebuilding the infrastructure. That will happen in time. I think the people have the resources to rebuild and restore an administration there too quicker than rebuilding the infrastructure.

I'm just equally skeptical that the US has as good of a plan for setting up Iraqi self-rule as the French or the European Union would. I lean towards the Iraqis themselves - just no one yet knows what they think as a nation. The United Nations as a whole seems as clueless too.

I think that the US should stay the course and help out during the transition and establishment of the new government. I think the World Community should be involved in that as well - if they want this new authority in Iraq to be fully welcomed and accepted in the World Body. Timetables are problematic in that they set milestones that become to be looked at as absolutes. If one is missed, then ghosts of doubt and demands for scrapping the plan come up faster than understanding of the sensitivities of the area. If I read the history correctly, similar incidents happened with Germany and Japan during reconstruction programs as occuring in Iraq today.

I see the US involved in Iraq for some time (several years at the current level of UN support) - but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. The administration of the effort and the support from other countries makes the difference in the timetable and ultimate success in transition.

Gunnie

Gunnie-- I trust you appreciate the dread that a precipitous American withdrawal would only usher in another Iranian type of government. Dire consequences for the people in the area and to ourselves. Additionally, I do not believe the American people completely understand that we are at war. The sustainment of substantial ground combat power matched with a civil construction effort can yield far reaching benefits. The obvious question is why are we not doing the same thing right here (education, infrastructure, etc). So the "Guns and Butter" argument is always present. Something that effects our policy formulation. We are not known as a patient society and we need to exercise great care and caution in planning what to do and when to do it.
DJ

Yes - that's what's scary - the US society is notoriously impatient in most situations. I cringe at imagining what it must be like to be the current President in a wartime situation with all the armchair Generals out there spouting fear and dismay. I'm not sure the US public generally remembers that the country is still ar war. Somehow, the declaration that major combat operations were concluded created an atmosphere that the "war" ended. The country paid more careful attention to the California Recall - wonder if anyone measures the National Attention Span...

I agree that it would be a disaster to pull out now for Iraq - and incredibly damning on the US for doing so.

When my wife and I entertain these ideas, she always asks me about my unabashedly Isolationist views on some things . If I could ever get elected, I'd fancy turning in our own resources and might to helping fix the infrastructure in the US. I'd love to send the US Army Corps of Engineers to fix roads, highways, and bridges. I'd love to let the Seabees loose on the coasts and deltas. I'd love to postphone building a single aircraft carrier to put that money into military and civil projects at home. I'd like to build a credible Border Guard - and not the token group we have today. Basically, I'd like US foreign aid to be for once given to aid the US...

I'm thrilled that the US Administration is doggedly holding fast against some withering onslaughts from abroad from former allies. If it takes this to finally learn (on the US side) patience and caution in successfully approaching and managing a crisis like Iraq - then it is worth it for all in the long run. I remember many opinions around the world centered on the US needing to "grow up". Well, perhaps learning and withstanding this kind of punishment on the world stage is a part of it. I don't ascribe this kind of wisdom and long-range thinking to President Bush - but I do to the excellent and smart people he hired to help him make decisions. Too bad the rest of the brilliance in Washington is quicker to join a fight against the Administration instead of building the brain pool...

Gunnie

Gunnie--when you decide to run for public office, let me know so I can cast a vote for you. Very well reasoned response. In the words of the Corps of Cadet prayer "always take the harder right rather than the easier wrong." I can only hope that our elected official regardless of political party follow that dictum. Reality does not support my wish. So, I believe that we will see partisan bickering mask intelligent discussion and dialogue. It is up to us to review available information and formulate intelligence conclusions. In that light, I trust we can get others to enlighten us regarding their observations. Seems there is a reluctance to take on this challenge.
DJ

I think that the most important thing to remember is WHY we went into Iraq in the first place. Leaving before the job is done would make the whole operation a huge waste of lives and resources. We need to stay until we are SURE that Iraq will no longer pose a threat to us, or anybody else, for that matter.

How much taxpayer money would it be worth if we could turn back time and prevent 9/11? I think that we should stay in Iraq - even if it costs a frooglepoopilion dollars.... just to make certain that this sort of attack doesn't come from that corner of the world. We may be ruffling some feathers with our "allies" in Europe, but as I see it - they didn't have thousands of their civilians murdered -just because of the flag they fly. I think that attitudes would be different had Osama flown passenger liners into buildings in Berlin or Paris. WE took it on the chin for our lack of PROACTIVE defense against terrorism.

Personally, I really don't care what other countries might think about our action in Iraq. In-action brought us 9/11 - I'd rather fight the terrorists on their soil than ours. If that means we get internationally criticized - so be it. We simply can't afford to do nothing. We tried that already - it obviously didn't work. What exactly did we do to deserve the attacks of 9/11? Nothing that warrented the actions that Bin Laden took. I contend that these types of attacks would/will continue to happen -whether we went into Iraq or not. I just think it was a good move to at least eliminate THAT threat. We should stay as long as it takes.

Jeff

Thank you very much for the compliment DJ. I'm afraid I'd make a poor politician - or a great target for assassination.

I think we don't (as a society) encourage greater participation and enlightenment because of the propensity for ill-informed and ignorant bursts from all sides when issues come up. Sure, free speech is a by-product of our Constitution - but more often than not it manifests as "freedom to say any stupid thing that comes to mind". The people I've had fortune to encounter in my short life time impress me in that when the discussions turn inane - they go silent. I do too. My silence isn't agreement - just the opposite - to what's being tossed out there at the moment.

When I say "stupid" I mean to rant without offer of solution, without addressing the issue by bringing up another one, by just being provocative to somehow be "heard" and "thought" doing something.

Again - another character failing admission time. In addition to a general Isolationist view, I also share some of the philosophies espoused by Robert Heinlen in his novel "Starship Troopers". I wasn't even a child at that time, but I get the drift of society in which he wrote his missive. The commentary even between the lines wasn't subtle. I do believe that service and participation earns one's right to "vote" - in this case weigh in on issues from the perspective of having participated in the effort and using the experience to offer substance to improvement or advancement.

If I ran for office in California - I'd probably garner less votes than Gray Davis did recently. Some areas of California are prime exmaples of the right to free speech and saying whatever "stupid" (referencing the above definition) thing that comes to mind is widly practiced and accepted. It utterly amazes me how some people stick their heads up outta the sand every couple of weeks with little barbs and jabs on the issue of the day - then disappear for the next sensational item to be served up. Sometimes it's amusing, but it gets depressing over the long run. It appears the rational and enlightened voices out there go quieter and quieter - lost in the din of those stomping to be heard but saying little of substance.

Ever watch C-Span and really listen to what's being said? It is a prime example of what you wrote above "partisan bickering masking intelligent discussion and dialogue" every hour. Trying to understand why Kobe Bryant news stories are more important that the Middle East or Iraq will simply fry your brain. Maybe that's why the Simpsons are so popular even after all these years - escape and ironic humor.

Yep - I'm convinced I'd make a terrible elected official because I don't "get it". I ask too many of the wrong questions. I'm not enamored with the "status quo". I don't think or support people earning positions of trust and respect simply because they're "liked" by the next higher guy on the totem pole or as a member of a clique. And, I like to dream of doing things differently and asking "what if we try it this way?"

This morning's post is a product of not enough coffee and too little model building over the last week. Thus, I elect to punish myself and chain my leg to the workbench to build models and participate in furthering my local modeling chapter's activites. #:-) Oooh, the pain!

Gunnie