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Modeling in General
General discussions about modeling topics.
How gory is too gory for this site
grayghost666
#021
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 05:51 PM UTC
Hello all,
I am campaign Leader for the Marine Corps campaign and I am planing a dio of 4-6 Japanese and 4-6 Marines in a hand to hand fight.
To describe some of the action I am planing is a Marine losing his head by sword with blood shooting up, a Japanese being hit with a entrenching shovel with his head half cut off, bayonets in the guts and backs, rifles shooting point blank range a couple on the ground with knives, etc. There might be more figures to show everything I want to.
I know this is a PG site and I did ask Gary (campaign admid) for Armorama and he suggested to put it up and have the members debate the question.
We have shown with figures half in/out in burned out tanks, Ripped up and shot down planes, ships burning/sinking with shell splashes all around it.

So is my proposed Dio to gory for Armorama or am I taking it to the next level.
I am proposing any x rated material, just what you have see in the war movies and documentaries.
Cheers.
Bruce
lukiftian
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 06:14 PM UTC
I'm not against it, but then again I have a gas van on my list of projects. The problem is that too many of us wish to focus on the heroic side of war and the glorification thereof at the expense of the uglier side. If we strive to attain the same degree of realism in our subject matter that we demand from the models we build and the uniforms we paint, this would be a most interesting hobby indeed.
Plasticbattle
#003
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 06:17 PM UTC
Capture it well and make it believeable, I dont see a problem with it.
Gore for the sake of gore and/or poorly done, it will get a lot of critic, as well as drawing focus from anything youŽve done well.

This is a lot harder to get right than wrong. Its your plastic, your choice!
rebelsoldier
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 07:24 PM UTC
i recall a dio of vietnam where it showed a GI beheaded, didn't go over too well at the time, probably secondary to terrorist on tv doing the same. as stated above getting it right may be the whole key, like ya say put it up for debate and let it go from there.
grayghost666
#021
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Posted: Wednesday, June 08, 2011 - 07:29 PM UTC
Thanks Guys for your replies I am just worried about Big Jim when he reads this. I am waiting for more replies to see if the how the members blow.
I have some reddish rock to show the blood and will use very thin spruce to show the blood coming out.
Cheers,
Bruce
Dangeroo
#023
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 08:07 AM UTC
Thought I'd offer a different opinion. Personally I wouldn't depict that kind of scene, but that's just me. I know it's part of war of course and I'm not one to glorify war but in my personal opinion it also has to do with the dignity of the individual. There's enough gore in the media for anyone to imagine what will happen next so if I wanted to depict a hand to hand combat I would probably just do the scene right before the final act. I just don't think everything has to be depicted in plastic...

Cheers!
Stefan
anti-hero
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 08:46 AM UTC
Have at it.

But as Frank said, it's a lot harder to get right than wrong. Do a poor job of it and it will get lots of negative criticism.

oldbean
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 02:10 PM UTC
My question is, does it need to be shown? i mean, if you want to depict terrible things, would we show a group of soldiers sexually asaulting a woman, or the murder of a child? These things happened in all theaters yet do we depict them? Paraphrasing the movie Jurassic Park, we are so busy thinking can we, we should be thinking should we? In my opinion, no matter how well it's done, I wouldn't look at it. There is enough gore and suffering in the world, do we really need to depict in our hobby? Just my two cents worth.

Jesse
HeavyArty
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 02:36 PM UTC
I am in the "Why build it?" camp. It sounds like just gore for the sake of gore. Sure war is gory, I know first hand. Why do you want to depict it in a dio? You can show the horrors of war but not make it gory.

Dead soldiers showing dark spots where the wounds are is actually more realistic. Blood doesn't stay red outside the body for long either. It turns dark red, almost black, very quickly and soaks into the ground. So, showing gore and blood spurting all over the place is actually not that realistic.

Sorry, I just don't see the point to it.
retiredbee2
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 02:37 PM UTC
We have all seen plenty of gore in movies and real life. War, sure enough, is the place to be when it comes to that. For me, this modeling is an art form that can show some of this , but I feel that it could and should be done occasionally as long as it does not get too overdone. When the bloodied up casualties are of say one side alone, it might upset a modeler of that particular nationality as extreme prejudice. However , the truth of it is , that war can be gruesome and you should not be put down for your expression of this fact in your model. I would say do it ,but don't have every single guy missing an arm or leg and laying in a pool of blood and guts. Work on the art of it and not the shock value. It will then be a better piece.
KoSprueOne
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 03:06 PM UTC
I say get it right

If it looks realistic then you nailed it,
but if it looks cheesed and fake and unskilled, then it will look like you're making fun of the scene and moment trying to be depicted

so be careful and skillful on how you approach this project




thegirl
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 04:00 PM UTC
Well Bruce that is a good question on what is tastful and what is not . If done right it will go very well , if not then thats a whole new can of worms .

I say go for it you are taking a snap shot of history in applying it into an art forum kinda . Some folks will like it while others won't .
grayghost666
#021
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2011 - 05:25 PM UTC
Hello All & Terri,
I was thinking of a classic banzai attack and doing the photo's in both black and white and color as I was going to have a flare floating over the action.
I respect what all of what all of you have said and this dio will be more of art then model, I hope.
Thanks for all of your input,
Cheers,
Bruce
dioman13
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Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 - 02:58 AM UTC
War is one thing. Overcoming your enemy buy whatever means. To show something like this is hard to pull off with taste. No one like to see dio's of their countries troops being killed or dismembered, some older Marines and Japanese might take offense to it though it was a reality they faced. There was a dio here called, My god, why have you forsaken me. It showed the leading of civilian Jews to a pit and being shot. At the bottom of the pit where bodies of those shot first and piled up on top of each other. Though it really left a nasty taste in my mind, it was a part of history that showed the absolute curelity that humans are capable of. This person did a splendid job portraying this horrible act and was tactfull and well done. Though no masive blood and guts were displayed, you knew right off what it was about. Be tactfull with your scene and you will be able to pull it off with out offending anyone. I think the showing as you discribed it, can be toned down some and still get your thoughrs across.
Plasticbattle
#003
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Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 - 08:37 AM UTC
I remember when "silence of the lambs" was released the critics loved it. Not because what it showed ... but what it didnŽt show. It left your imagination to fill in the rest. Much scarier!
Maybe it would be better to show the sword being weilded and the opposite soldier raising his arm in defense, or trying to avoid being sliced. The action is made and our imaginations will "visualise" the outcome anyway.
IŽve seen similar threads to this and the resulting dios quite a few times on Armorama, and to be honest not many (if any) have worked out or matched the modelers plans.
Try to paint one injured figure with a deep cut a blood and see how it goes. YouŽll see for your self how hard it is to get it done realistically.

sniper
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Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 - 05:54 PM UTC
Even if this can be done successfully (that's a big if), why is it needed? Isn't life brutal enough that we don't have to model some of the most gruesome things people do to one another? It's one thing to model a military vehicle (we all like them because of historical interest and because they are just plain cool) but heads flying off and guts spilling out? If you'd seen anything like this yourself up close in person, my feeling is that desire to model such a thing wouldn't be there.

Some subjects can cross the lines of good taste. It may be relative to the individual viewer (I get tired of so much of the endless stream of SS subjects) but in this case the work would need to be stellar with some novel way to depict this to elevate itself above something quite ugly.

lukiftian
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Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 - 06:48 PM UTC

Quoted Text

My question is, does it need to be shown? i mean, if you want to depict terrible things, would we show a group of soldiers sexually asaulting a woman, or the murder of a child? These things happened in all theaters yet do we depict them? Paraphrasing the movie Jurassic Park, we are so busy thinking can we, we should be thinking should we? In my opinion, no matter how well it's done, I wouldn't look at it. There is enough gore and suffering in the world, do we really need to depict in our hobby? Just my two cents worth.

Jesse



Because gore and suffering are part of the world, especially pertaining to our hobby. What we're depicting isn't cute, or trite, and it shouldn't be depicted that way, we don't live in a theme park or Hollywood we live in a world where bad things happen every day, and not to be reminded of them is to risk repeating them. That said, there are ways to suggest it, to create emotional impact without painting the diorama red. I've seen some very good dioramas that have done this, and have sparked the same debate.

I remember a very good one of a mass grave, being tended to by a Prinze Eugen squad. Their faces were covered by scarves to deal with the smell, and the bodies in the pit were a tangle covered in lime.

It was super. And there have been others.
lukiftian
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Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 - 06:58 PM UTC

Quoted Text

War is one thing. Overcoming your enemy buy whatever means. To show something like this is hard to pull off with taste. No one like to see dio's of their countries troops being killed or dismembered, some older Marines and Japanese might take offense to it though it was a reality they faced. There was a dio here called, My god, why have you forsaken me. It showed the leading of civilian Jews to a pit and being shot. At the bottom of the pit where bodies of those shot first and piled up on top of each other. Though it really left a nasty taste in my mind, it was a part of history that showed the absolute curelity that humans are capable of. This person did a splendid job portraying this horrible act and was tactfull and well done. Though no masive blood and guts were displayed, you knew right off what it was about. Be tactfull with your scene and you will be able to pull it off with out offending anyone. I think the showing as you discribed it, can be toned down some and still get your thoughrs across.



I remember that from another site and it was great except for one thing. The clown who owned the site photoshopped all of the yellow stars off the figures and when I asked why everyone thought they were Jews, they could be Poles, or indeed anyone voila! the stars magically appeared!
richardw
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Posted: Friday, June 10, 2011 - 08:37 PM UTC
This is a tough one to answer.
I have to agree with those members who say impression is stronger than depiction, it's the same argument that says for most males, a picture of a scantily dressed woman is sexier that that of a naked one.
We make models of subjects set, in the main, during times of conflict, and no-one can deny that the sights, sounds and smells of events in wartime, can and have sent people mad. I believe this can accurately be depicted without actually showing it and that is down to the skill of the modeller. To imply the horror is more effective I.M.H.O.
To do this diorama without it looking like a cheap second rate, staight to video slasher movie will be the hardest part, but good luck.
NickZour
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Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 10:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I say get it right

If it looks realistic then you nailed it,
but if it looks cheesed and fake and unskilled, then it will look like you're making fun of the scene and moment trying to be depicted

so be careful and skillful on how you approach this project






I totally agree with that
Good luck with it Mr. Bruce and when you're finished, please send me a link via PM


Cheers Nick
Buckeye198
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Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 10:28 AM UTC
I'd have to say pass on the idea. I understand all the points brought up in this thread, and like many of them said, if you can get the dio to look "correct," then congratulations and your skills are worthy of praise! But as for me (and probably a lot of other people as well), I feel that this is a subject that doesn't have to be shown. The humanity and emotions of war can be captured without decapitated and disemboweled fighters. My personal feeling is that often times, we modelers are actually memorializing the common soldier, sailor, airman, marine, and all who support them. It's nothing political, but it's a way of thanking them for their service, remembering those who passed, and making physical reminders of the horrors of war. Think about all the war memorials in existence today. Many of them show the wounded, but not a single one (to my knowledge at least) will depict the acts that caused the wounds. Don't get me wrong though, I'm no ultra-pacifist; I believe that every now and then, force must be used to preserve peace and I'm hoping to join the Navy when I'm out of college, but I would not feel right seeing a scene like the one you're proposing. You can show the two sides charging each other or something like that, but the exact scene you have described is unnecessary in my opinion. Whatever you end up deciding, it's your model, and I wish you the best!
lukiftian
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Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 01:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'd have to say pass on the idea. I understand all the points brought up in this thread, and like many of them said, if you can get the dio to look "correct," then congratulations and your skills are worthy of praise! But as for me (and probably a lot of other people as well), I feel that this is a subject that doesn't have to be shown. The humanity and emotions of war can be captured without decapitated and disemboweled fighters. My personal feeling is that often times, we modelers are actually memorializing the common soldier, sailor, airman, marine, and all who support them. It's nothing political, but it's a way of thanking them for their service, remembering those who passed, and making physical reminders of the horrors of war. Think about all the war memorials in existence today. Many of them show the wounded, but not a single one (to my knowledge at least) will depict the acts that caused the wounds. Don't get me wrong though, I'm no ultra-pacifist; I believe that every now and then, force must be used to preserve peace and I'm hoping to join the Navy when I'm out of college, but I would not feel right seeing a scene like the one you're proposing. You can show the two sides charging each other or something like that, but the exact scene you have described is unnecessary in my opinion. Whatever you end up deciding, it's your model, and I wish you the best!



If you want to pay homage to the men and women who served go to a VA hospital, there's plenty to pay homage to there .
That homeless 30-40 year old man begging on the street? Chances are he served in Iraq or Afghanistan. Pay homage to those that served willingly by buying him lunch or finding him a place to live because the bank foreclosed on his home while he was away on his fourth or fifth tour.
grayghost666
#021
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Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 02:05 PM UTC
Hello All,
I am going to make this Dio as artistic as I can. I do agree about the sword and will change that. BUT, There will be some blood flying around.

I do not know hot many of you members were in that green hell so long ago, But I still have nightmares about the fighting. I did my share of hand to hand when we could catch the little guys(*****************) and my share as a tunnel rat, and S/D missions and patrols hoping that the guys with you are not high. I have landed in hot LZ's and have been pulled out of them. I have spent my R&R in Thailand and went back.

I am not calling myself a hero, But I will do this Diorama with Respect, Honor, and Dignity as well as I can.

Cheers,
Bruce
drumthumper
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Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 03:55 PM UTC
I have to say this kind of disturbs me. Not so much the subject matter, i.e. the savagery of war, but honestly, the description of the idea, with blood spouting and spewing everywhere in copious amounts. To me that idea alones leaves the realm of reason and borders on sensationalism. I really don't think I would like to see that and I can't really think of any way to pay respects to a diorama that captures the moment a head leaves a body - in several instances - all on the pretense of being historically correct. Calling it "art" doesn't really dilute the intent, either. I have built numerous diorama with bodies depicting the unfortunate outcome of war, but I thought I was tasteful in their design and was careful not to make it the focal point of the scene. Surely there is another way to capture the horror of war without seeing it take place right in front of our eyes.

Mike (not a prude, just tired of having reality thrust into my fantasies) Kirchoff
Slimedog1
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Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2011 - 05:00 PM UTC
Bravo!
Hope it looks great.
What is war without blood and gore?Well its not war then.
Maybe some of these guys on here would rather see some little bunnies and some cute little puppy dogs?Maybe some butterflies and some pink flowers?
He is asking about depicting what really goes on,not porn!!
Just my 2 cents
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