Hi all,

An upcoming show is introducing a 'Premier Gold' class, similar to the AMPS system it seems, to run alongside the usual IPMS judging. It's being described as a level playing field for those new to competitions. You can enter individual models in either judging system but not both at the same time with the same model. You can enter as many models as you like in a single category but will only get one award, that being the highest any of your models earns.

I've entered IPMS contests (and received firsts because I'm so wonderful ), but always liked the idea of the AMPS system though I've never been to an AMPS show. I build because I like to build and feel judging different models against each other is problematic, but also like to feel my work is always improving and recognition is always nice!

I wonder how you might approach the above scenario. Would you feel just as good about a medal as you would about "beating" the competition? Have people competed in both systems and do they have a preference? Is going for a medal cowardly even if you feel your work could win against others?

Opinions are very welcome!

Thanks!
Steve

I think that if you enter into a contest, you should be judged against all other models. I wouldn't be too proud of a "second class" "first place" award.

Steve,
In my opinion, i would think you need to determine your own "satisfaction factor" regarding either of the judging formats. I am personally confused with a contest that offers two judging styles when most events struggle to judge one format well. Sounds like just another way for the "elitists" to weed out the competition, to me.
I kind of disagree, though, with Matt's proposal that you would not be happy with a "second-place" first-place award. That supposes that the level of competition you face in one judging style is unequal to the other. Personally, I don't think from one contest to another you can propose with any degree of certainty, that will be the case in either format. Models that come short of placing in a highly competitive category can easily be far and away better of a model than one finishing first in a category with just a few mediocre entries. Where is the parity there ...?
As I grow older, and competition for "Gold" seems like such an inane waste of time, I have grown to like the Open judging format. IMO models should be judged on their own merit, with emphasis placed on not only basics, but also where the modeler tried to take the model and was he successful getting it there. Too often models are rewarded for the "less is more" philosophy, and in many national events, the MODELER is recognized, not necessarily his work. Again, what is fair about that?
In a nutshell, model contests are a good chance to see how your work measures up against others, as you stated. Nothing wrong with that. But, unfortunately the way these events are often judged is far from an exact science, and also too often personalities and friendships play a role in the outcome. With the Open style of judging alot of that (not all, mind you) is removed from the equation.
Take contests as a way to gather new ideas by seeing others' work. Establish new acquaintances and begin building new friendships. Fellowship among modelers is typically pretty high, after all we suffer the same afflictions! Please don't place too much importance in winning. Nothing wrong with bringing home a First or Gold ... just remember, it's all just plastic.

Kirchoff

This has repeatedly been discussed over at the IPMS/USA forums many times so why not here?

The traditional 1-2-3 system has been in use forever and is the one most standard model contests entrants are familiar with. You put your model on the table, the next guy does the same, last man standing takes first. Elegant in its simplicity.

Elegant, but flawed in several ways.

Getting a first may mean you have built a truly impressive and great model. It can also mean everyone built really bad models but yours was the least bad of the bunch. It can also mean no one else entered the category that day. The latter two of these are hardly ”first class” firsts. As someone who has been judging at various levels for nearly 30 years, I’ve seen this happen quite often.

This also leads to the situation where in one category, several excellent builds get noting while in the class next to it, a marginal, or downright lousy, build gets a first. This, too, is quite common.

Getting less than first may mean your model was a piece of garbage or it could have been superb, but for a microscopic flaw that was not present on the first place model. That flaw may have needed flashlights, mirrors and an OptiVisor to find. The “flaw” may not even BE a flaw, such as the panel line in the upper rear fuselage of a Bf-109. Someone not very familiar with the aircraft may assume that was an unfilled seam, especially if the one next to it has had that panel line filled.

Asking why your model placed less than first can be a fool’s errand. There is no set answer. It could range from, “your fingerprints in the paint foiled you,” or “well, the judges really couldn’t find anything really wrong with your work but the next guy had less wrong with his work.”

How to improve in 1-2-3? Build to the class that has little entered and hope no one else enters it next year.

While open judging, as developed by the Chicago club with input from no less than Shep Paine, may be more labor intensive, 1-2-3 can also take huge amounts of time when there are two or more close contenders for an award. That leads to the constant complaint that judges are nit picking. And, yes, they are. They have to when they are tasked with giving out one first, one second and one third in a class.

In open judging, your work is evaluated and you are rewarded accordingly. If you and three other guys enter flawless models in a class, you each get a gold. If no one enters a really good model in a class, there may be no awards.

Using the open system also eliminates the need for splits and huge numbers of micro classes such as is regularly seen in 1/48 aircraft.

Using this system, if you ask a judge how you can improve and move to the next level of award, you can be given specific answers.

Ultimately, in 1-2-3, you're being judged by how well the other guy built his model. In G-S-B, you're being judged in how well you built your model.

Now, good luck to the guys trying to run both systems, that’s going to be a lot or work for the judges. My club uses both as well, but aircraft and cars are done with traditional judging and everything else is done with the open system.

Thanks for the replies so far.

Matt, I'm not sure if I agree with the idea of a "second class" "first place", but that may be exactly how this could be viewed if the idea of "beating" a competitior makes a win somehow better.

As mentioned, I've done well at contests and bested models I've seen go on to win at larger contests. My subjects are usually in popular categories and since I have no club affiliation when I go to a show, nobody knows me.

I like to go to a show once or twice a year to see other models and vendors, but it's always struck me as odd there are guys who do a "show circuit" bringing models in hopes to get as many trophies as possible from as many competitions as possible. They may seem not to care when the awards are presented but you can tell that's not the case and the reason they go is to collect this stuff.

I don't feel much from "beating" another model, especially in situations as already described. When I build I'm building to better my last effort, not in hopes of doing better than a guy a hundred miles away I don't know. There are also people who build in categories they know they have the best chance of winning and choosing subjects they feel will play to what judges are looking for. It happens.

That's why I like the idea of AMPS where you're working towards individual perfection and the satisfaction of beating your previous effort. But placing the two side-by-side it does seem one award could be seen as inferior to the other.

So I'm still confused. In the past I've wanted to try an AMPS type contest as much of the judging I've seen (I've also judged once or twice myself) has seemed uneven and "winning" hasn't given more that an ugly award to stick in a drawer. Trying for something "lesser" isn't my goal either.

The 1-2-3 system is open to nepotism, corruption and abuse, as is the 'open' system, and if anything the 'open' system is worse. The AMPS system is the best, but it's very labour intensive.

I tried getting the AMPS system introduced to the aircraft and car modelers in our club, it's possible to do it if you can get past the reactionary attitude. The car modelers were game, the aircraft guys all sat on their hands.

Would you be proud of getting a first in a contest where the second and third were years behind you skillwise? I wouldn't be.

The problem with the way of doing things you favour is that it's open to nepotism, corruption and abuse, and eventually drives contestants away to the point where there won't be a contest at all.

I guess I'm ignorant and didn't know there's a difference between AMPS and open. I was using the terms interchangeably but they aren't the same?

After thinking about a “second class first”, getting a medal based on set criteria would be as satisfactory as “beating” a competitor. Modeling is a solitary thing; when I’m building my thoughts aren’t about what I should do to make a winner, but instead to make the kit as perfect as I can for my own pleasure. That’s what I’d like to be rewarded for if I decide to show the model.

The AMPS method is a form of open judging. Any number (or no) golds, silver and bronzes may be given in any category. Various organizations run their events to meet their particular needs.

To follow up, if the situation of two judging styles offered simultaneously ever comes up in the future I'd simply place all my entries into the traditional IPMS judging. I think the intent was to try and entice "new" builders to a show.

The couple entries I had in open judging were gold and I also received 1st in standard judging. Most likely I would have received another 1st if I'd moved one model out of open and probably placed 2nd or 3rd in another category. In the category I would have gotten another 1st, in all honesty there wasn't much competition so if it gave someone else a bit of happiness to win, that's a good thing.

I'm still of the opinion open style makes sense, however and would work fine at many shows if there was a decision to rank the two or three main genres (planes, armor, and maybe ships) 1,2,3 and the remaining categories open.

I did try to listen in on the judging and it seemed thorough. A lot went into trying to come up with a ranking in some categories. The guys looking at the open models took their time and did their best to stick to the standards to determine placement.

There are always one or two people who don't like the results and a smaller model beating a much larger, detailed model didn't sit too well with the builder of the larger. No win is guaranteed.

PS - Wonderful work on the Native American busts.