Just got the new Osprey book, Dieppe, prelude to D-day. Very well written and lots of nice illustrations of the beaches and how the ground looked then and now. Orders of battle and all successes and failures of both sides. Very informative stuff. If you are interested in this battle, purchase this book. A must own for any Canadian military buffs.

HastyP

Hey, I will have to check that one out. Thanks!

~Chip :-)

I haven't read that book specifically, Hasty, but I think that the Canadians have always been sold short, whether it be Deippe, Italy or even, dare I say, Afghanistan. Most people in the States think the only thing Canadians are good at is hockey. I know otherwise. I am done ranting now, thanks for the heads up about the book.

Shaun

Can you post the ISBN? Thanks

ModlrMike

Yep the ISBN # is 1-84176-624-0

I ordered mine through Chapters. It is part of Osprey's campaign series # 127.

HastyP

Dieppe was tragic. The British knew we didnt have a chance but they sent us to be used as Colonial Cannonfodder. Just another example of how the British saw Canadians as nothing more than disposable pawns. Gee, and you wonder why anti-British sentiment runs so deep in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa,etc!

Hey Tapper, Dieppe was bad right from the planning stage but we ( ALL the Allies) needed to try out Hitlers defences otherwise D-Day couldn't have happened. I've got quite a few friends in Canada (mostly BC) and you're the first I've heard mention cannon-fodder, there were British units at Dieppe as well.
I used to be a Sea Cadet instructor and the cadets turned out every year since 1946 to honour the Dieppe veterans when they return to Wisborough Green in Sussex for their memorial service. All the vets that I spoke to were proud of what they did and not bitter - they realised the need for the raid and know that the slaughter wasn't intentional - the defences were far stronger than anyone thought at the time and the beach steeper - the tanks were supposed to break through, not get bogged down.

I often compare this sacrifice with that of Tarawa in the Pacific. Both efforts were undertaken against tremendous odds. In the case of Dieppe, we were repelled at the water's edge and took the lessons to heart. Thus, when we invade Normandy we brough Mulberry to preclude (if only for a short while) the necessity to capture a port. Same goes for improvements in landing crafts and tactics. At Tarawa, the results were different but the tragedy was none the less sever enough to maerit new equipment changes. In both insatances, brave men died so that their Nations would survive.
Interesting
DJ

does it? i was never aware of it, i know we have a rather higher opinion of you commonwealth lot than most.

cheers

joe

One thing to remember as to why the Canadians were used at Dieppe is that they were fresh and equipped. Much of the British Army in Britian were still reconstituting from the Battle of France. If it hadn't been for the Canadians, ANZACs, Indians and South Africans, the Germans would have rolled over all of Europe and North Africa.

greatbrit

I didn't know we had a low opinion of Brits. I only hear good things about Brits from most of the people I know. I always have had a high opinion of my family's original home.

HastyP

Was Dieppe necessary?

whilst it was a disaster in terms of losses etc,

it provided us with incredibly valuable experience that would, i believe, help significantly to ensure the success of d-day,

i mean things like the funnies, the need for air and naval support etc

cheers

joe

Lesons learned at Dieppe were put to use as early as the landings in North Africa, except that the British tried to coup de main trying to seize harbor facilities intact - both, one with American troops on British ships, were disasters. he rests of the ports seized in North Africa were by indirect approaches from the landward sides, avoiding harbor defenses.

It would appear that the heroic sacrifices of the Canadian force reaped rewards for the Allies. Regardless of nationality, people should be justifiably proud of that end.

here here,


couldnt have said it better myself

cheers

joe

Firstly, the canadian troops in england had been there for a while and inactive, there morale was sagging from the inactiveness (new word?) and really wanted to go fight, anywhere.

It is sad the massacre that followed, but it still had its rewards as mentioned above.

As for anti-british feeling, most of the dominions are proud of their ancestral ties with Britain, the only hate i know of is the stupid boers of my own land. with out britain our countrys would never have gotten to were they are today, i still feel that south africa should like australia and new zealand have a union jack on our flag, to show our history.

:-)

But wasn't Dieppe really just a dress rehersal for Normandy. It seemed that it was more like a very big commando raid. Hit-them-hard-and-pull-back stuff.

Nice thread. I happen to be writing a paper on Dieppe at the monment. It was a a mistake but not just the operation but the entire theory of raiding as an extension of grand strategy was a failure. the only real effect they have is morale for the british public. The germans only really feel them as a pinprick and don't take it too seriously. In terms of lessons for D-Day, more was learnt from the large scale invasion on N. Africa and Sicily than the raids. One of the common held myths is that the mulberry harbours were developed as a result of dieppe. this is wrong the plans and order for them were laid 2 months before dieppe. Dieppe was also badly planned. it took a month to plan after the failure of Rutter. The british intelligence chiefs were not informed. Thiungs such as beach gradients etc were found from 19th century postcards!! The worst things of all is the operational orders issued to units. In it all Dieppe is reffered to as Jubilee but at the end the co-ordinates for Dieppe are given. What a mistake!! All in all a badly planned op.

Ross

Ross-- what is the failure at Rutter? Never heard of it before you mentioned the name.
thanks
DJ

The "pinprick" raids were actually more than just a nuisance to the Germans. Two examples are the Airborne/Commando raid that captured German radar components and the raid on the German heavy water plant in Norway. Granted them were not much as far as tying doen trrops in France, but they did lead to more troops being held in Norway, Greece and Yugoslavia.

Jeff-- do you know what "the failure at Rutter" is all about? See two post before your response.
thanks
DJ

DJ - Rutter was the intitial plan dor an attack on dieppe, It was cancelled because of bad weather and as it kept on being put back was eventually scrapped for fear of intelligence being leaked. Think of Eisenhowers fear at D-Day at keeping troops bottled up and security.

On raids causing transfer of forces. I think this is wrong. At the end of the day the germans in their early years could rotate troops for reinforcement and this is probably why some troops appear in the areas at similar times. the likely hood is that they are being rested and refitted after action on the eastern front.

Ross

the commando raid on the german heavy water plant in norway, apart from being one of the more incredible of operations in ww2, also set back the germans enought o prevent them being able to develop atomic weapons,

so more than just a pinprick wasnt it?

cheers

joe

Not to move to far of topic but the germans were years away from developing the atomic bomb. The destruction of thw heavy water plant was considered a success but post war research had proven that they were years behind the allies. The simple fact was that the head of their atomic bomb program, heisenburg, a theoritical physicist, miscalculated and believed it took more uranium than the germans had access to, too make a successful bomb. He made an error. This was why they would never succeed.

As in raiding just being pinpricks. they were a failure in grand strategy. their only benefit was in terms of morale. They never really assisted in teaching lessons for invading europe. The invasion of n. afica and sicily did this. As i have already said the Mulberrys, an often cited lesson of dieppe, were ordered a month before the operation was planned and two before it took place.

Ross