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Problems about MIG‘s and AK's thinners
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Posted: Monday, March 28, 2011 - 01:25 AM UTC
hey guys,i got some problems about different thinners, and i need ur help.
1.what's the difference between MIG's thinner for washes and AK's white spirit?
are they just the same thing as mineral spirit?
2. i tried to thin tamiya's enamel paint with mineral spirit but it doesn't work,just got some grain's looking mixture,can mig's thinner do the job?
3i used to use zippo oil to thin enamel and oil colors for filter and washes,and it works well. the problem is that zippo oil dries too fast taht hard to control the result,
any method to slow down dry time?
many thanks
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Posted: Monday, March 28, 2011 - 05:12 PM UTC
someone help?
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Monday, March 28, 2011 - 08:32 PM UTC

Quoted Text

hey guys,i got some problems about different thinners, and i need ur help.
1.what's the difference between MIG's thinner for washes and AK's white spirit?
are they just the same thing as mineral spirit?
2. i tried to thin tamiya's enamel paint with mineral spirit but it doesn't work,just got some grain's looking mixture,can mig's thinner do the job?
3i used to use zippo oil to thin enamel and oil colors for filter and washes,and it works well. the problem is that zippo oil dries too fast taht hard to control the result,
any method to slow down dry time?
many thanks



Hi eric, welcome on the site

1 Ak is surely white spirit, I can't say anything about Mig thinner for washes 'cause I've never used it, but anyway, considering that washes usually are made with oils (and Mig prouduction company has a wide range of oil colors), in my opinion at 99.9 % his thinner actually is mineral spirit

2 tamiya paints are acrylics, so you can't use withe spirit to dilute them. You should use tamiya x20a thinner, isopropyl alcohol or at least distilled water
Here you can find an useful link to clear doubts about dilutions:

http://www.little-cars.co.uk/workbench49.pdf

3 Zippo oil is more similar to gasoline rather than white spirit. As you noticed, it evaporates too fast to controle it in a right way. Anyway you can use it to fix pigments and mostly to dilute chalk powders. I advice you to use as thinner for filters washes and oils, turpenoid or withe spirit. If you use enamels for washes you'll be able to use also humbrol thinner

Here a link about washes, filters ans so on

http://missing-lynx.com/rareworld.htm

I hope this will be helpful for you

cheers

Ps. Next time, to have a faster reply to your questions about paints or dilutions, you should post your tread in "Painting" forum.



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Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 12:51 AM UTC
hi Mauro
thanks for ur help. so AK's spirit is not hhat worthy and i'll still use mineral spirit
i'm using tamiya's enamel paint, some bottled one, maybe the formula is different from humbrol's. it's sad that humbrol is not available here
by the way thanks for ur advice. have a good day
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 10:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

hi Mauro
thanks for ur help. so AK's spirit is not hhat worthy and i'll still use mineral spirit



Yes....you can...


Quoted Text

i'm using tamiya's enamel paint, some bottled one, maybe the formula is different from humbrol's. it's sad that humbrol is not available here
by the way thanks for ur advice. have a good day



Is absolutely different. As i said you have to use isopropyl alcohol, tamiya thinner or water. I've heard that someone use without problems also pink alcohol and I'm going to try screen blue washer as Tamiya thinner, but to be honest, I haven't tried yet

Anyway, happy modelling to you
Phil_H
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Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 10:51 PM UTC
To Eric:

To be certain which Tamiya paint you're using, the enamel range comes in small rectangular jars and the acrylics come in wider-mouthed round jars.

If indeed you are using the enamels, you should be able to thin them with mineral spirits - I have done so without any problems. It should be noted that they do require a bit more stirring to mix thoroughly. (You can also use Tamiya's own thinner, but this is considerably more expensive than mineral spirits)

If you are using the acrylics, as Mauro stated, you will have to use Tamiya's X-20A acrylic thinner, Isopropyl alcohol or denatured alcohol.

If you can get hold of Tamiya lacquer thinner, you can use this to thin both paint ranges.

Mauro,

In some countries, Tamiya sells an enamel range. These paints are numbered exactly the same as the acrylics (eg. X/XF) but are are bottled differently (as noted above) and are most certainly different chemistries.
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 11:16 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Mauro,

In some countries, Tamiya sells an enamel range. These paints are numbered exactly the same as the acrylics (eg. X/XF) but are are bottled differently (as noted above) and are most certainly different chemistries.



Yes Phil, you must intend these ones:



I had to be more precise in my comment

I never use the Tamiya enamels 'cause they are hard to find in Italy.

Tamiya actually sales two kinds of thinner:

X20A For acrylics paints ("A" maybe it means Acrylics)



x20 For enamels



The difference beetween the bottles is the color of the top

Blue for X20

Withe for X20a



Thanks for your correction

regards
Phil_H
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Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 11:27 PM UTC
Hi Mauro, that is indeed correct.

X-20A for acrylics and X-20 for enamels. It's very easy to miss the "A", but with the exception of the small 10ml jars, the X-20 enamel thinner has a blue cap.
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 - 11:31 PM UTC
In my opinion Tamiya must change the packagings


This way it's rather easy buying the wrong thinner !
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Posted: Thursday, March 31, 2011 - 03:02 AM UTC
hi phil
thx for your reply.indeed i'm using the small jar enamel paint. maybe the it's my mineral spirit‘s problem, not pure? anyway, i still can thin that paint with zippo oil
Removed by original poster on 03/31/11 - 14:11:34 (GMT).
Removed by original poster on 03/31/11 - 14:13:50 (GMT).
Removed by original poster on 03/31/11 - 14:17:12 (GMT).
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Monday, April 04, 2011 - 05:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Zippo fluid is naptha, and evaporates faster than pretty much anything. At the same time it allow you to work faster, it also wouldn't break up paint pigments as well as mineral spirit. Filters done with zippo fluid looked chalky and uneven, not a very good solvent IMO.



I absolutely agree, is not a very good solvent. As I said, I used to dilute the chalks with it, but now I use just pigments with mineral spirit or acrylic resin
It allows to you to work faster, but working fast in my humble opinion is not advisable with filters
Having more time to correct and refine is much better
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 04:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

ya, acrylic is the best to get to the fine density and evenness filters need, but having solvent drying so fast can cause headaches, on top of the fact water has high surface tension, and won't allow pigments to lay down evenly around the boundaries. Tide marks can become headaches if concentrations of pigments are not spread out in time. There's a trick though. You can add clean water to the edges as it dries to continue spreading out the pigments. Just make sure you add very little so you don't re-wet the center areas.

There are other advantages using acrylic filters. For one, transparency/opacity is easier to adjust. Colors are easier to grasp too, since what you see is pretty much what you will get.

The mineral spirit and enamel/oil combination is safer, but results are inferior to acrylic, especially now there are abundant choices of acrylic colors that are dead flat. Mineral spirit is also thicker and more "flowy" than water, making control of small regional coverages difficult. If you want a lot of variations, you have to use acrylic. The oil route will more or less make the colors blend together and become indistinguishable from one another.




Hi Brian

Very interseting post. By coincidence today I read on a recent italian modeller's magazine, an article about a Bishop painted with the acrylic filters technique. The writer sayd more or less the same things that you 've expertly highlighted in your post. He sayd also that another tip to "broke" the surface tension, is adding to the first filter (only to the first) a drop of dish soap in the water which is used to dilute the paint

To be honest I'm pretty curious to make some practice with acrylic filters

Thanks a lot
Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 05:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Haven said that, this change of surface tension does not work on the inner side of the boundary, so it only solves one side of the problem.




Quoted Text

There's a trick though. You can add clean water to the edges as it dries to continue spreading out the pigments. Just make sure you add very little so you don't re-wet the center areas.



So, if I' ve understood you in a right way your tip is to add water to the edges in any case. Is that it?

In your opinion instead of soap can I use the alcohol as a surfactant?

As far as I know also alcohol is a surfactant...
Maybe also a (light) screen washer would be useful...


(sorry Eric if they're using your post to clarify these matters. I hope you too can find interesting ours posts)






Spiderfrommars
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Posted: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 - 10:31 PM UTC
Me too if I have enough time, I'll do some trials on junk plastic parts

Maybe I'll use low grade IPA as a diluent

Otherwise I would try the soap mixture, but instead of using the dish soap, I want to try a lighter soap or a drop of house screen washer


Thanks for your cleever replies Brian

Regards
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