I recently saw the DVD of this movie (which by the way I loved when I first saw it as a kid back in the '70s) on sale cheap (GBP 3) and so decided to buy it just to see if it really was as bad as I remember it being when I last watched it maybe 15 years ago (I know, touch of masochism, LOL!).
Well, I watched it at the weekend and it was WORSE than I remember it, and for so many reasons quite apart from the anachronistic armour.
For a start, the terrain (high up in the mountains and on the plains of Spain) bears no resemblance to the actual Ardennes, parts of it were quite clearly shot in the height of summer, there was some very dodgy back-projection, the film sets look like ... well ... film sets, countless extras "dying" in that very hammy, theatrical '60s style when machine-gunned. I could go on and on.
Even allowing for the fact that the film is very much "of its time", it's still embarrassing to watch. And the producer's claim in the contemporary interview (included as a DVD extra) that the tanks are actual WWII-vintage machines for which they had to "scour Europe" is even more embarrassing. Was he deliberately insulting the intelligence of his 1965 audience, or was he just plain ignorant himself?
People say that remakes are never as good as the original, but this is one movie I'd love to see redone - only properly next time. Maybe as a BoB-style mini-series with some decent location filming. Probably won't happen though.
- Steve
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Battle Of The Bulge (1965)
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 12:10 AM UTC
Dangeroo
#023
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 12:35 AM UTC
Hahaa! Yeah, I agree, it's a horrible moivie that has nothing to with what it claims to portray... 
It nevertheless has a place in my small collection for being the only movie (to my knowledge) that has large scale tank battles. It is also one of the first war movies I saw as a kid.
Redo it? No, I think not. There simply is nothing in it, that you could use in a serious movie. I agree though, that a mini series about the Battle ot the Bulge would be really good.
Cheers!
Stefan
It nevertheless has a place in my small collection for being the only movie (to my knowledge) that has large scale tank battles. It is also one of the first war movies I saw as a kid.Redo it? No, I think not. There simply is nothing in it, that you could use in a serious movie. I agree though, that a mini series about the Battle ot the Bulge would be really good.
Cheers!
Stefan
Tojo72
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 01:16 AM UTC
You gotta love when Hesslers young tank commanders all break into Panzerlied at their first meeting 
Please refresh my memory,what tank did they use for the Tigers,were they Pershings or M-47's ?
Please refresh my memory,what tank did they use for the Tigers,were they Pershings or M-47's ?
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 01:25 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Redo it? No, I think not. There simply is nothing in it, that you could use in a serious movie. I agree though, that a mini series about the Battle ot the Bulge would be really good.
No, you're right - the movie itself is a complete train-wreck with virtually nothing to redeem it.
I do think a mini-series would be the best way to go if the film industry ever revisted the Bulge. But when I say "remake" the movie, I mean with proper attention paid to history (people, places and events) and authenticity (uniforms, equipment, locations), rather than the composite-character, fictional nonsense of the 1965 comic-book farce.
- Steve
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 01:30 AM UTC
Quoted Text
You gotta love when Hesslers young tank commanders all break into Panzerlied at their first meeting
Please refresh my memory,what tank did they use for the Tigers,were they Pershings or M-47's ?
The "Tigers" were M-47s. Painted grey
On the U.S. side we had M-24 Chaffees standing in for Shermans. They and the other U.S. vehicles (jeeps etc.) sported what I believe was 1960s Spanish Army green & tan camouflage.
Using Chaffees was slightly more forgivable, given that 2 or 3 of them actually took part in the real battle. But the iconic Allied tank of WWII in General and the Bulge in particular was the Sherman.
And if they could still get their hands on plentiful Shermans for Kelly's Heroes in 1970, why couldn't they do the same for BOTB which was made five years earlier? (I know that KH was filmed in Yugoslavia, but there must have still been plenty of Shermans in running order in many countries in the mid 60s, given that some armies were still using them.)
- Steve
ltb073
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 01:46 AM UTC
I also recently watched this movie again and could not believe how bad it was. The camo pattern on the US vehicles was just plain bad, 1 scene would have snow then the next looked like a summer day.
As far as a re-make goes Band of Brothers had several episodes dedicated to the BOTB and Patton had a few scenes as well. But I'm all for a Mini-series if its done right
As far as a re-make goes Band of Brothers had several episodes dedicated to the BOTB and Patton had a few scenes as well. But I'm all for a Mini-series if its done right
Tojo72
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 01:48 AM UTC
Hmm,an M-47 painted gray,modeling Hessler's tank might be an interesting project.
Dangeroo
#023
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 01:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
And if they could still get their hands on plentiful Shermans for Kelly's Heroes in 1970, why couldn't they do the same for BOTB which was made five years earlier? (I know that KH was filmed in Yugoslavia, but there must have still been plenty of Shermans in running order in many countries in the mid 60s, given that some armies were still using them.)
I suppose it depends on where the movie was made. The Spanish Army never used Shermans so they were hard to get in Spain. The Yugoslav Army on the other hand used them, so it was easy for KH to get them. It wouldn't be cheap to get all those tanks to Spain from all over Europe for those large tank battles. I heard those movies usually had some agreement with the local army when the film was made in specific countries.
What is more of a mistery to me is that they didn't use any German designs for BotB, they should have been easy to get in Spain, shouldn't they?
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 03:19 AM UTC
[quote]
If not "easy", then certainly "easier" you would have thought, given that Spain was using Panzer IVs up to about the mid '50s (when they were replaced by the M-47) and didn't offload their IVs to the Syrians until 1966-ish. So they were still around locally when the movie was made, presumably just gathering dust in some depot somewhere.
- Steve
Quoted Text
What is more of a mistery to me is that they didn't use any German designs for BotB, they should have been easy to get in Spain, shouldn't they?
If not "easy", then certainly "easier" you would have thought, given that Spain was using Panzer IVs up to about the mid '50s (when they were replaced by the M-47) and didn't offload their IVs to the Syrians until 1966-ish. So they were still around locally when the movie was made, presumably just gathering dust in some depot somewhere.
- Steve
Kelley
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 05:53 AM UTC
I remember watching this movie with my dad several times as a kid. I saw it again a couple of months back. Is it bad? For sure! But I still enjoyed it, if for no other reason just the memories it brings back. I'll have to try and pick up the DVD. I'd love to see someone do a good movie or mini-series about the battle, if it was done well!
One quick story related to the movie: One of the biggest arguments my dad and I ever had was about the tanks in this movie. When I was a teenager and had learned the difference between what was what, I mentioned while watching the BotB one night that "those were not really German tanks." Dad (who served in the U.S. 1rst AD in WW2, in North Africa and Italy, he was a tank driver early in the war, later he became an MP), well dad swore that, "yes they were German tanks, he had seen them himself!" I said no they weren't, and we went back and fourth for about 10-15 minutes until I finally just gave up. Oh and his mind was still as sharp as a tack!
Cheers guys,
Mike
One quick story related to the movie: One of the biggest arguments my dad and I ever had was about the tanks in this movie. When I was a teenager and had learned the difference between what was what, I mentioned while watching the BotB one night that "those were not really German tanks." Dad (who served in the U.S. 1rst AD in WW2, in North Africa and Italy, he was a tank driver early in the war, later he became an MP), well dad swore that, "yes they were German tanks, he had seen them himself!" I said no they weren't, and we went back and fourth for about 10-15 minutes until I finally just gave up. Oh and his mind was still as sharp as a tack!
Cheers guys,
Mike
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 06:45 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I mentioned while watching the BotB one night that "those were not really German tanks." Dad (who served in the U.S. 1rst AD in WW2, in North Africa and Italy, he was a tank driver early in the war, later he became an MP), well dad swore that, "yes they were German tanks, he had seen them himself!" I said no they weren't, and we went back and fourth for about 10-15 minutes until I finally just gave up. Oh and his mind was still as sharp as a tack!
I know a German war vet who fought on both the Eastern and Western fronts before finally being captured in Normandy in July '44 and shipped off to a POW camp in Canada. He' s full of interesting tales, and I remember him once going on about how "if we'd had as many Tigers and Panthers as the Allies had Shermans, it would have been a completely different story" etc.
Anyhow, I asked him which he thought was the better tank, the Tiger I or Tiger II - and he looked at me completely gone out. all puzzled and bewildered. "Whaddaya mean Tiger I or Tiger II? What the hell are you on about" he shot back at me (but in German), before adding emphatically "Es gibt nur Tiger (there's only the Tiger). Tiger ist Tiger".
It surprised me a lot, but he clearly had no clue about the difference between these tanks. Or else he'd forgotten. Or whatever.
But that brought home to me that these guys obviously look at these machines in a completely different way to us. I suspect Mike that during the war, your Dad was too preoccupied with not getting himself killed, and that making mental notes about the precise contours, dimensions and technical specifications of this vehicle or that wasn't uppermost in his mind. Same with most of his contemporaries I'd imagine.
Add to that the passage of time, and that probably explains the mix-ups.
We on the other hand - in the safety of our hobby rooms and with copious amounts of reference material, photos and line drawings at our fingertips - are not just experts at identification but we go all nerdish over the minutiae as well. It's a completely different mindset.
- Steve
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 09:15 AM UTC
Slightly OT, but I've just finished reading Danny Parker's BOTB book, and there are some interesting accounts of mis-identification of German vehicles especially. Basically the rule of thumb was "if it had a long gun it was German"! Virtually any German vehicle was mis-identified as a Tiger, including Jagdpanthers and Panthers (understandable, they are big vehicles), PzIV (in poor light & at a distance the shapes are not dissimilar, especially if the PzIV has turret skirts), but also Stugs & Jagdpanzer IVs (no comment). It worked the other way too, the few Pershings that made it to NWE were identified as German, due to the long gun! The simple fact was that to an Allied infantryman, any German tank meant death, and to any Allied tankman, a Tiger meant the same.
Kelley
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Posted: Monday, October 18, 2010 - 02:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
But that brought home to me that these guys obviously look at these machines in a completely different way to us. I suspect Mike that during the war, your Dad was too preoccupied with not getting himself killed, and that making mental notes about the precise contours, dimensions and technical specifications of this vehicle or that wasn't uppermost in his mind. Same with most of his contemporaries I'd imagine.
You hit the nail squarely on the head Steve! These men/boys were too busy trying to stay alive to worry about that stuff.
Mike
armouredcharmer
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Posted: Sunday, October 24, 2010 - 08:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hmm,an M-47 painted gray,modeling Hessler's tank might be an interesting project.
It`s been done - I`ve got a Revell M-47 in my stash with just this in mind.I found it doing a Google search and looks really cool.
I know the film stinks in many ways but it holds a sentimental place in my heart,as it was one of the films my dad (now sadly departed) and i would sit and watch together when i was a kid.
exer
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Posted: Sunday, October 24, 2010 - 08:58 AM UTC
Yes it's a terrible film that plays fast and loose with history and historical accuracy but some of the acting is terrific. The scene when James MacArthur (Danno from Hawaii Five O) asks the Erzatz MP "Does the road to Amblève still lead to Malmedy?" is great.
Robert Shaw is always worth watching, Charles Bronson is good too and who can forget Telly Savalas on what looked like a melted Chaffee
Robert Shaw is always worth watching, Charles Bronson is good too and who can forget Telly Savalas on what looked like a melted Chaffee
exer
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Posted: Sunday, October 24, 2010 - 09:05 AM UTC
I haven't seen it a while but Battleground is a really good movie about a Platoon from the 101st Airborne during the Bulge.
There was a movie made a few years ago called "Saints and Sinners" about the Bulge- did anyone see it?
There was a movie made a few years ago called "Saints and Sinners" about the Bulge- did anyone see it?
russamotto
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Posted: Sunday, October 24, 2010 - 02:04 PM UTC
Saints and sinners? or Saints and Soldiers. The latter was made not too far from here. Midnight Clear also covered the topic and was filmed locally, to take advantage of the snowy forests.
I'd like to see a decent remake of the Bulge, and a stack of others like Anzio, The Bridge at Remagen, They were expendable, and even A Bridge Too Far, which I thought was pretty good. With computer graphics being able to produce what they can, they should be able to make up for lack of physical vehicles. Of course, one day people are going to be debating the historical accuracy of Kelly's Heroes.
I'd like to see a decent remake of the Bulge, and a stack of others like Anzio, The Bridge at Remagen, They were expendable, and even A Bridge Too Far, which I thought was pretty good. With computer graphics being able to produce what they can, they should be able to make up for lack of physical vehicles. Of course, one day people are going to be debating the historical accuracy of Kelly's Heroes.
Kuno-Von-Dodenburg
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Posted: Monday, October 25, 2010 - 11:07 AM UTC
@ Pat. Yes, there were some great actors in BOTB. Just a pity they were given such p!ss-poor material to work with, and that the film was such a dog. Telly Savalas' "Guffy" though wasn't exactly a million miles removed from "Big Joe" in Kelly's Heroes was he .
Sadly I believe that of all the actors in the main roles, James McArthur and Ty Hardin are the only ones still alive.
"Saints And Soldiers": Great Bulge movie, very well done. Ditto "A Midnight Clear". Very intense that one. Both go to prove you done need a huge budget and to make a decent war movie. None of this very annoying "shakycam" that seems to plague so many movies these days either, at least not as far as I can recall.
"Saints And Sinners" was a 1982 album by the rock band Whitesnake.
@Russ: "Anzio", strangely I'm a lot more sympathetic towards this one than I am towards BOTB, even though it's of similar vintage, is similarly "condensed for effect" and also has "M-47 Panzers". It just seems to work better and looks better also. The strangest thing about that film is the opening title music, which is a very anachronistic 1960s croony ballad sung by Matt Monroe (or someone of that ilk). A most odd choice.
- Steve
.Sadly I believe that of all the actors in the main roles, James McArthur and Ty Hardin are the only ones still alive.
"Saints And Soldiers": Great Bulge movie, very well done. Ditto "A Midnight Clear". Very intense that one. Both go to prove you done need a huge budget and to make a decent war movie. None of this very annoying "shakycam" that seems to plague so many movies these days either, at least not as far as I can recall.
"Saints And Sinners" was a 1982 album by the rock band Whitesnake.
@Russ: "Anzio", strangely I'm a lot more sympathetic towards this one than I am towards BOTB, even though it's of similar vintage, is similarly "condensed for effect" and also has "M-47 Panzers". It just seems to work better and looks better also. The strangest thing about that film is the opening title music, which is a very anachronistic 1960s croony ballad sung by Matt Monroe (or someone of that ilk). A most odd choice.
- Steve
Bravo1102
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Posted: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 - 11:37 PM UTC
Just a note the M47s in Anzio are all marked as Allied tanks down to the star in the circle. The panzers are all heavily covered with foliage so much so that it's hard to tell what kind of tanks they are. One is supposed to be a Flammpanzer and is convincing. They even appear to be in sand which is a rarity in movies and one thing that even KH didn't get.
Anzio though also has the obvious NATO exercise footage of M48s in classic US 1960's markings landing with anachronistic wading gear(HUGE US stars and USMC bumper codes. The USMC was at Anzio?)
About BOTB the fire commands are correct giving target type, range and Hessler noting to lead the "Sherman" he calls the Chaffee a Sherman.
The US tank commander tells his guys to load hypershot. But with that loaded they should have knocked out the Tigers...
Anzio though also has the obvious NATO exercise footage of M48s in classic US 1960's markings landing with anachronistic wading gear(HUGE US stars and USMC bumper codes. The USMC was at Anzio?)
About BOTB the fire commands are correct giving target type, range and Hessler noting to lead the "Sherman" he calls the Chaffee a Sherman.
The US tank commander tells his guys to load hypershot. But with that loaded they should have knocked out the Tigers...
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