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Saving Private Ryan vs. The Longest Day vs...
Flivver
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Posted: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 06:39 AM UTC
OK:

Just for the record:

I am new here, but I almost get the perception that we Americans somehow seek to diminish the British participation in WWII.

Just for the record, the more recent movie “Saving Private Ryan” was in fact not made by Spielberg to be the ubiquitous D-Day/Normandy movie.

He made this movie to correct an American problem.

Our photo-journalist Ernie Pyle in fact took footage of the carnage at the Utah Beach landing that the U.S. Government “Archived” it, meaning, you will never see it again.

This was to “soften” the actual losses and carnage that we suffered at Normandy, especially at Utah Beach.

Unfortunately, although Cornelius Ryan did do a brief scene about Utah, he generally did the usual American bravado/”cake-walk” stuff in his book and the movie titled “The Longest Day”, like our great officially sanctioned and "santitized" newsreel photographers were allowed to publish at that time.

Spielberg’s production was to show what was officially “sanctioned” at that time, that in fact it was not the general enslave, with the eventual breakthrough due to simply “wearing out” the German resistance at Normandy.

Now this may have resulted in a general perception that Spielberg’s production is all we American’s see and understand, whereas that in fact is not true, since in fact we are the actual descendents of the poor troops that landed there and we know that it was not all carnage and not all just a “waiting game”.

Not only that, some of us had fathers "messed up" in the Pacific war as well.

The fact is since then we had a problem with the fact that another belligerent actually got us into WWII by attempting to destroy the backbone of the Pacific Ocean’s and now the world's largest and most powerful Naval Power, the United States Navy.

Like Hitler, the U.S. had a “Two-Front-War”, yet that was supposed to be one of his major downfalls, but for some reason it was not ours.

So if you-all will please forgive us in our apparent Euro-centered myopia, we over here had a couple of other distractions and in fact an actual and real threat to our mainland besides Hitler, we would appreciate it.

I mean we had to worry about Tojo and Hirohito after him, or let theJapanese own our Pacific coast.

OK?

Eddie
jimbrae
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Posted: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 06:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I almost get the perception that we Americans somehow seek to diminish the British participation in WWII.



More the idiots like Ambrose who, sadly, became best-selling authors. Spielberg doesn't get off the hook either - much as I like BoB, it's impressively 'America-centered' as, unfortunately is Private Ryan. Here's just one of the reasons for the perception of 'resentment':

http://armorama.com/forums/154632&page=1
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
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Posted: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 07:17 AM UTC
As an Englander I do on occasion get rattled by the lack of acknowledgment of British and common wealth troops involvement in WW2 in cinema, this results in people forgetting we were along side US forces in most places (I know not all). I do acknowledge though that if the Americans had not aided us before and fought with us from 42 the war could have had a very different ending for us, and possibly for the US as well.
Flivver
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Posted: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 07:24 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As an Englander I do on occasion get rattled by the lack of acknowledgment of British and common wealth troops involvement in WW2 in cinema, this results in people forgetting we were along side US forces in most places (I know not all). I do acknowledge though that if the Americans had not aided us before and fought with us from 42 the war could have had a very different ending for us, and possibly for the US as well.



Actually, as I take it, we were along your side for the Atlantic, ETO war.

You-all actually "broke in" our guys in firstly in North Africa.

The greater number of American ground troops in Europe served under Monty, not under Patton-thank God!

I wonder if some of our stuff is to recover loss of ego or pride.

We were your in fact your guests, and I am sorry if some of us were offensive, as usual newcomers can be arrogant.

Personally, I wish to thank you-all for having us and allowing us to help you finish the job.

Eddie
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Posted: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 07:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

More the idiots like Ambrose who, sadly, became best-selling authors



I doubt that anybody here wants to see the British get their full credit for their immense contribution to WWII than I. That said I really wouldn't call Ambrose an "idiot." I fully believe that Ambrose idolized the American G.I. Because of this he "played to his audience" which was Americans. To this end he also had a habit of making Germans perhaps better than they were, to show how great it was that the Americans beat them, and to play down the contribution of other allies.

Really though if you read a lot of accounts by American soldiers they didn't always have a particularly high opinion of the British. This is perhaps because, at least initially, the British didn't always have a very high opinion of Americans.This isn't helped by Montgomery making the statements that he did concerning the Battle of the Bulge, implying that he was responsible for saving the day.

Bottom line, in my opinion, is that many historians are at least somewhat biased toward their own country. Perhaps what is needed is a British Ambrose to become a best selling author telling the British side.

Removed by original poster on 03/24/10 - 19:36:11 (GMT).
russamotto
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Posted: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 07:52 AM UTC
I have Ernie Pyle's book about North Africa. In it he specifically states that the US was there to aid British and Commonwealth forces, and that they had been carrying the war for over two years before US forces landed in Tunisia. He also said that British forces were fighting the main fight, and US forces were a side show, getting our feet wet and preparing for the bigger battles to come. His language is plain and no nonsense. By volume, US forces gradually became dominant, and that is where the focus seems to have gone as well.

As for portrayal of facts and the forces involved, most films are made for a market, and not for the benefit of historically honest perspective (anyone see Pearl Harbor?). I would welcome a film that followed a group of soldiers from 1939 to the end of the war, from Belgium and Dunkirk to North Africa, Italy, and NW Europe. Maybe an independent film maker will provide a story of French Moroccan soldiers, or Maori or Indian or Brazilian soldiers fighting in Italy, or the Mexican squadron that fought over Luzon.

When the Longest Day was filmed, it was done with tremendous effort to show the multiple perspectives. The German and French segments were filmed by German and French crews, respectively. A significant number of people involved in the production were actually involved in the war. Yes, it was sanitized and shows no blood, but that was at the request of the persons actually involved in the battle, and not the censors, who were preoccupied with "Cleopatra". I had a veteran tell me he didn't like bloody war movies. War to him was terrifying, and death sacred. He didn't want to see it smeared all over a movie screen.

Great Britain fought a two front war as well, battling the Japanese in places many people don't know or think about. Australians and New Zelanders fought right beside US forces in New Guinea and the Solomons. British and Commonwealth naval forces fought through the war alongside US ships, but again little mention is made.

I think the importance of this hobby is that it represents true history, and that we can provide the facts through what we do. I don't really think anyone else is going to step up and fill in.

md72
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Posted: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 07:53 AM UTC
Ambrose was an excellent story teller. To do that, he had to know the story and his audience. If his work seems biased towards an American audience, that’s because it was. I believe that he did indeed idolize the American GIs, in one of his forwards, he comments about being around 9 or 10 at the end of the war and listening to the stories of returning soldiers. It seems to seep through into his books. I’m sure that he also developed a very personal relationship with his sources. I read “Citizen Soldiers” after watching BoB and was startled by the number of times he quoted Maj. Richard Winters (the Easy company CO in BoB).
CaptSonghouse
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Posted: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 08:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As an Englander I do on occasion get rattled by the lack of acknowledgment of British and common wealth troops involvement in WW2 in cinema, this results in people forgetting we were along side US forces in most places (I know not all). I do acknowledge though that if the Americans had not aided us before and fought with us from 42 the war could have had a very different ending for us, and possibly for the US as well.



The Errol Flynn WWII actioner "Objective Burma" so cheesed-off British authorities during the war, it wasn't screened in Britain until years later. The issue then was the complete absence of any British participation in this CBI-theatre storyline and the depiction of U. S. troops carrying out a British mission.

--Karl
CReading
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Posted: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 09:59 AM UTC
American movies, Made in America by Americans for a primarily American audience.
Up until maybe the 70's the vast majority of Hollywood movies were made with the American audience as the target market.
Is it any wonder that they tailored stories to suit the audience?

No one has ever accused Hollywood of being concerned with historical accuracy It's all about the story and fitting it into an under two hour format.
SPR, BoB, et al are simply fictitious stories overlaid on known historic events. Where the actual events don't fit the story...they are altered.

That's why I like books.
Cheers,
C.
Fitz
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Posted: Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 06:29 PM UTC
How many movie-goers are there in the UK?

And how many in the States?

There's your answer.
AJLaFleche
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Posted: Monday, April 26, 2010 - 02:12 AM UTC
You want history? High thee to the library/bookstore and read the first person accounts and histories based on good research. Delve into the primary sources. People from all the combatant nations have writtent their stories. Even then, you will need to rad extensively since each author will bring in his/her own point of view, prejudices, and agenda.

You want history? Don't watch TV, neither drama nor Discovery/History channels. maybe PBS will give you some first person perspective, buut you will get an American slant if you are in the States. That's the target audience.

You want history? Don't go to the movies. That's entertainment made by Americans FOR Americans for the most part. They are basically novels for the screen. There's absolutely NO prerequisite for any truth or reality here. You may as well be reading Harry Turtledove.

That said, Band of Brothers,Tthe Longest Day, A Bridge Too Far, Flags of Our Fathers and now The Pacific are at least based on real people and events. No, they are not fully annotated and footnoted documentaries and some characters are combinmed/created and dialogue may be made up by the writers. SPR's characters are ALL fictional. It's about as historically accurate as Pearl Harbor.

As to the films of the landings, unless the OP has evidence otherwise, the common thought is that Omaha's films were compromised with sea water.

Movies have to appeal to a very specific demographic to get made in order to make money. That's why movies exist...to make money for the studio, producers, directors, third assistant best boy gaffer. The studio that routinely makes movies that don't sell won't be around long.
md72
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Posted: Monday, April 26, 2010 - 03:55 AM UTC
As subtext to AJ's comments. Remember the most creative people in Hollywood are the accountants.
grom
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Posted: Sunday, May 02, 2010 - 02:21 AM UTC
Yes in some respects your right Ed,we are usually portrayed as tea swilling bunglers and bit players which is quite annoying.We also had two fronts and our civilian population was under constant air attack from the luftwaffe,all this before the USA entered the war. Public opinion in the US was massively against involvment in a "Europeon" war hence lend lease etc a debt which we have not long paid off.I understand that films or movies if you wish are purely for entertainment but it does cause some resentment and to a degree detracts from the bravery and heroism of everyone military and civilian of all nations that took part in this great conflict.
RedwingNev
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Posted: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 - 06:20 AM UTC
As an American said to me about the "america-centric" nature of BoB, "If you want a movie about what the brits did, then maybe you should make one yourselves".

Don't complain about Hanks, Spielberg, Ambrose etc. Complain about the BBC, about the famous British actors and directors who aren't willing to put their time, money and reputation behind a British themed WW2 story.

And be grateful for the slew of British narrative historians our generation has been blessed with - Hastings, Overy, Holland etc.
ptruhe
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Posted: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 - 06:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I almost get the perception that we Americans somehow seek to diminish the British participation in WWII.



What is this perception based on? If it's Hollywood's fault then it's nothing any of us have said or done. Spike Lee wasn't happy with Clint Eastwood's Flags of Our Fathers.

Also there is some good WWII movies or series centered around British involvement. Piece of Cake is a good example. I can't speak for the accuracy but I liked it.

Paul
casailor
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Posted: Saturday, May 29, 2010 - 08:23 PM UTC
Most of us in the US are aware the the Brits and Commonwealth carried the war for the first two years. However what we see during that time is that the Axis military leadership was simply better than the Brits. Rommel never had more than 10% of the numbers the 8th Army had, and was always short of supplies. The Brit generals seemed to have an inferiority complex after Dunkirk, it seems that they thought that the Germans were ten feet tall and covered with hair and couldn't be beaten. After 1942 this all changed, the Tommies proved to their officers that they were just a good as the Germans or the Japanese troops and as the war went on they got progressively better.

I have made comments praising American troops because I have been one and I know how our enlisted troops are different from most others. Americans by nature are pretty independant, and most of us don't need or want our hands held by our officers. We don't even need our NCOs to hold our hands. Usually in an American unit everyone is aware of the objective and no matter how much of the chain of command is eliminated we just keep trying to achieve it. The only complaint I had about the European troops I served with (Vietnam Era) was that the enlisted men thought that just because someone was an officer, he had all the answers. They would obey orders from junior officers when we would sit the 2lt down and tell him politely that he needed to place his head somewhere where he could see daylight. We trained our officers, not the other way around. At first most of them didn't know the difference between what they were taught in the classroom and what worked in the real world.
grom
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Posted: Sunday, May 30, 2010 - 12:08 AM UTC
Your comments show such little understanding Richard,the Germans had been readying themselves for war for years, by their very nature it was an organised military state well armed and well trained and ready.Against a Europe that had seen the war to end all wars and the decimation of its young men and were therefore reluctant to enter another bloodbath.Yes we made mistakes and we learnt the hard way ,as did your nation.Your comments about leadership astound me it appears from your comments that the United States army is a democracy and that you all decide to do your own thing and ignore instructions if they dont suit, I am also ex army and as far as I am aware every army in the world works on the basis of teamwork not the individual.There is a hierachy of command the boss goes down the 2 i/c takes over and so on.You speak of working with Europeon troops and mentioned Vietnam I presume that these troops would be Australian and New Zealanders who themselves have a history of being laid back but understand and obey instructions.Yes some officers are poor but they learn from the experience of the other senior ranks, as the old saying goes there is a field marshalls baton in every corporals haversack.
casailor
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Posted: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 04:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Your comments show such little understanding Richard,the Germans had been readying themselves for war for years, by their very nature it was an organised military state well armed and well trained and ready.Against a Europe that had seen the war to end all wars and the decimation of its young men and were therefore reluctant to enter another bloodbath.Yes we made mistakes and we learnt the hard way ,as did your nation.Your comments about leadership astound me it appears from your comments that the United States army is a democracy and that you all decide to do your own thing and ignore instructions if they dont suit, I am also ex army and as far as I am aware every army in the world works on the basis of teamwork not the individual.There is a hierachy of command the boss goes down the 2 i/c takes over and so on.You speak of working with Europeon troops and mentioned Vietnam I presume that these troops would be Australian and New Zealanders who themselves have a history of being laid back but understand and obey instructions.Yes some officers are poor but they learn from the experience of the other senior ranks, as the old saying goes there is a field marshalls baton in every corporals haversack.

I was never implyiong that any army is a democracy. My point was that in most European armies the officers are "gentlemen" and are considered "better" than the men they command. My point was that even with the chain of command destroyed US soldiers will accomplish the mission as long as they know what it is. From reading history, most other armies simply stop functioning when too many links in the chain of command are severed.
grom
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Posted: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 - 08:56 AM UTC
Is that not the same in the US army /forces ? are your officers not deemed "gentlemen"? I find it a bit condesending of you to suggest that most European Armies lack the will to carry on if they lose their officers,and only the American soldier will carry on, if that were the case then I would have probably ended up wearing field gray and all the individual medal winners (other ranks)have wasted their time
casailor
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Posted: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 03:52 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Is that not the same in the US army /forces ? are your officers not deemed "gentlemen"? I find it a bit condesending of you to suggest that most European Armies lack the will to carry on if they lose their officers,and only the American soldier will carry on, if that were the case then I would have probably ended up wearing field gray and all the individual medal winners (other ranks)have wasted their time

Our officers are "gentlemen by act of Congress" they aren't considered to be a higher social class. Most of them are middle class people who have a college degree or are lower or middle class academy grads. I'm not putting down the European armys, simply stating from my experience, you can't immobilize the American fighting man by destroying the chain of command.
grom
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Posted: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 07:08 AM UTC
Do you honestly think that all European officers come from a priviliged upper class background and are called Rupert? and that bobbies ride on bicycles two by two.Yes the British army has been steeped in traditions that have been observed for hundreds of years which other countries may see as strange and antiquated, these traditions encourage espirite de corps and strength of character and pride in their various regiments. As an ex member of HM armed forces I see them amongst the finest in the world bar none willing and able to carry out their objective to the last man.
russamotto
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Posted: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 04:54 PM UTC
Just some intersting information posted here on "The Longest Day". Note the involvement of many of the cast in the real invasion, focus on avoiding stereotypes and depicting real events, and multiple directors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Longest_Day_(film)
DutchBird
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Posted: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 - 07:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Do you honestly think that all European officers come from a priviliged upper class background and are called Rupert? and that bobbies ride on bicycles two by two.Yes the British army has been steeped in traditions that have been observed for hundreds of years which other countries may see as strange and antiquated, these traditions encourage espirite de corps and strength of character and pride in their various regiments. As an ex member of HM armed forces I see them amongst the finest in the world bar none willing and able to carry out their objective to the last man.



I am seriously wondering where he gets that from... any vestiges of this will have died in the mud of northern France (many say the European nobility literally died there).

I guess he confuses access to good education (an necessary requirement for access to officer positions), and where heritage ($$$$) does play a role, with preferential treatment in the military. Even though this situation ($$$$ increases chances for good education) is exactly the same in the US.

Put it this way - from others who worked with American forces in the field (not personal experience), it was the Americans who are among the most hierarchical and among the worst getting anywhere without the officers present. Or lacked in their ability to improvise. Stories I have heard from those deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan seem to confirm it. Of course one has to take into account that there are great differences between units.

Also much of the effectiveness of the German army in WW II relied on the exact opposite: soldiers and the like were thought to think like one or two ranks higher for two main purposes:

1) Allowing them to maintain initiative and to act when their officers were not present/could not be communicated with.

2) Allowing them to replace casualties among the officer corps more easily.

It is perhaps the primary reason for the incredible fact that generally the German army maintained its fighting effectiveness for so long (well into 1944) despite the massive losses and massive expansion of the army until that point.

It is unlikely to have changed since.
casailor
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Posted: Thursday, June 03, 2010 - 05:36 AM UTC
My opinion is based in Vietnam and post Vietnam service. The vast majoruty of ur officers were military managers not combat leaders and we got the job done in spite of them. They were slaves to "THE BOOK" and totally lacked the ability to think outside the box. I had no direct experience with European officers, but in my direct contact with Aussies and Kiwis, as well as unit members who had worked with European units said they were very stratified. Officers didn't associate with NCOs or "other ranks" NCOs didn't associate with enlisted. In My units there was a social devide at the E-6 level. Below E-6 everyone was "one of the guys" and authority came with the job, not the rank. E-6 and above didn't usually socialize with the lower ranks, but still defered to them on the basis of specialized knowledge. We generally had a pretty low opinion of our officers and my opinions were colored by the statements of other people with first-hand experience with NATO units. When I was in, we still either had draftees n our units, or at least had a memory of the universal soldier mentality. Our officers, while staying seperate, never had any pretense of superiority simply because they were officers. Some were jerks, some were ok, but very few of them had the wisdom to know that they actually knew very little of how to function in the real world. Perhaps I'm not typical, I was EOD and a Combat Engineer, both jobs that put a premium on the ability to adapt and think outside the box, but I was almost always superior in knowledge and tactical ability to my officers. When I was younger, I wasn't wise enough to hide that fact, so I was pretty unpopular with my officers. It never stopped them from listening to me and using my ideas, but I never got any credit. As I've gotten older, I've realized that I probably wasn't the best enlisted man, and probably should have been pushed into OCS.