Firstly, could I request that this Topic remains cordial and doesn't get heated?

I'm posting this firstly because too often our perceptions are unduly influenced by what we see in Movies, and by the 'Mass-Market' books which try to gain some credibility purely on the basis of their success. Yes, i'm talking about Ambrose.

The link, which has been around for a few years, was posted on Missing Lynx by Cliff Leverette on Missing-Lynx and really deserves some consideration...

The Royal Navy on Omaha Beach (LINK)

I have only quickly scanned the article, especially the final paragraphs where he takes issue with Marshal, whom I haven't read, Ambrose, and Spielberg. I would have to say he is dead right about Ambrose. I like Ambrose, and even got to meet him once before he died, but I understand that he wrote for his audience, mainly Americans, and he seemed to go a bit overboard making Americans good at the expense of other nationalities. Spielberg is obviously not a historian, but a fine movie maker, and he made S.P.R. for his main audience, Americans. He did make up for this a bit in Band of Brothers showing British troops, and in a favorable light.

I will have to read the entire thread you posted when I have more time. it looks very interesting.

My 'personal' defence of Ambrose stems from the fact that he opened many people's eyes to much more detailed and accurate actual history rather than the purely anecdotal.

Spielberg is, at the bottom line, a movie-maker. All too often these people are creditted with an 'insight' that they would very rarely claim for themselves.

I read the link from over at ML yesterday. It is most descriptive of the conditions on the water, placement of various craft, positioning of the tanks and the actual landing itself. This was a day after I had read an article on the use of DD tanks on the various beaches, and how far out they had been launched in the rough water. Some of his details are eye opening. I had heard a lot of criticism over the rocket barrage landing short of the beach just prior to the soldiers landing there. One televised interviewer stated it was due to inexperience and the rocket crews being afraid to get closer. Interesting how in the narrative he points out that he believed it was due to the rough seas, which would have made aiming the rockets nearly impossible.

I found the accounts of the landings on Omaha to be fascinating. Thanks for giving us the link. I for one am most grateful that Jimmy Green and others like him are finally able to set straight the actual history of what happened in these places and times. Regretably, far too many of the warriors of our parents and grandparents generation have passed on before they have told their stories.

Semper Fi,
Dave

Another part of the story, once again, from Missing-Lynx:

http://www.warchronicle.com/correcting_the_record/ambrose_coxswains.htm

Interesting thread. I had the privilege of listening to Anthony Beevor speak at the Galle Literary Festival in January on the subject of conspiracy theories and the frequent contradiction between historical evidence, revisionist history, and Hollywood. He was quite disparaging about Hollywood's version of battles such as the Normandy landings, Pearl Harbour, etc, but conceded that such books and movies while often inaccurate, still made history both attractive and accessible to an audience which otherwise would have no idea whatsoever of those events.

As a child, most of my knowledge of WW2 and its component battles came from Battle Picture Library comics! But if not for those old comics, I doubt any interest in military history would have been sparked. as an eight-year-old, I'd never have heard of the siege of Malta, the Battle of Britain, or the Tarawa landings, if not for those comics. They created an interest that I then explored through more accurate historical accounts than the Red Devils at Stalingrad

Interest in WW2 had mostly faded by the 1990s, replaced by more recent events such as Vietnam and the Gulf War, but movies such as Saving Private Ryan and The Thin Red Line brought it all back.

First off, nice article.

On the other hand, for some reason although there is a reference to the more recent movie "Saving Private Ryan", yet the same author either is not aware of or forgot about the older classic movie which in accordance to Cornelous Ryan's classic book it was take after, "The Longest Day" did not ignore the British participation in the Normandy D-Day invasion at all.

In fact a complete scene is dedicated to the role of the British at one of their beacheads, including an eccenctric Beachmaster with his pet bulldog who wacks a stalled Bren Gun Carrier with his walking stick to get it going again.

But then I am a history buff.

Eddie

I don’t really see how BoB shows British troops in a favourable light? In the series you only see British troops either watching the C-47’s take off for Normandy, British tankers making fools of them selves in Holland, and the SAS getting rescued by the 501.th…

A funny side note is that about half of the cast of BoB are British actors…

These treats are very interesting reading btw.

Thats right Ole,it appears we are always shown in a bad light, bungling ,tea drinking sat about while everyone else is rushing to win the war. With all this negativity Iam suprised we survived Dunkirk.....or did we, perhaps history may be re-written and Tom Hanks and his band of brothers can be seen escaping to be picked up on the beaches of Dunkirk.....

And had it not been for Monty’s boys, Denmark would have been a part of Stalin’s East block…had the British troops been a few hours late the Russians would have taken Denmark. Not to offend Russians, I’ve just never been to keen on Stalinism. I have the Union Jack hanging over my worktable. my Grand Father ripped it of a British jeep when they liberated his town. Lucky for him (and me!) they didn’t shoot him!

Glad we did'nt stop for "tea" on that day then ....LOL

Ambrose did write a book on the British glider troops at Pegasus Bridge but the odds of this being made into a movie are slim. I think this was also portrayed in The Longest Day.

If I was British I'd probably take more offense to the portrayal in A Bridge Too Far with XXX Corps tanks crawling into German antitank fire and the British paratrooper killed retrieving a container of berets but I guess Richard Attenborough, CBE would have to be taken to task for that.

Regardless, I'm not sure who needs to be educated on this. I'd guess the majority of the the membership is around middle age. I devoured the Time Life series on WWII as a kid which I think was very fair coverage of all the Allied forces.

The youngsters might get a bit misguided by Band of Brothers or Saving Private Ryan but it's more likely they'll learn their WWII history from the Call of Duty and Medal of Honor games. They've also missed out on rotary telephones, no cell phones and life without the internet.

Paul

Good point you made Paul,the beret thing could have happened however it is a negative thing as is the limeys drinking tea while your guys are dyin,as we are consistantly left out of WW 2 it would be nice when we are cameoed occasionally partaking, that the effort is worthwhile and not to portray us as incompetants who appear to hinder operations and have to be rescued.

Jim,
Thanks for posting this link. Very informative. By far the majority of supporting warships on D Day were RN & RCN.
I think I'm correct in saying that the British and Canadians actually suffered more casualties overall on Gold, Juno and Sword than the Americans did on Omaha and Utah on D Day(losses on Utah were very low). One of them was my wife's great-uncle, a WO2 in the 5th Berkshires.
Of course if any British filmmaker could be bothered to make the effort and produce a film about Hill 112 (Cornwall Hill), we might get something like a reasonable balanced view of the British efforts in Normandy. Having read fairly widely about this battle, from both British and German perspectives, I'd say it made Pork Chop, Hamburger Hill and Omaha look like Sunday school outings (sorry, not meaning to be offensive). It went on for a lot longer for a start. Three British infantry battalions were completely shredded there and the SS Panzers used their supporting Shermans and Churchills for target practice. There's some great characters too - Monty and "Butch" Thomas on the British side, and Bittrich and Harmel for the Germans, the same guys in fact who would face off for the rematch at Arnhem. Alternatively the death ride that was Goodwood would be fairly spectacular. But I can't ever see this happening, as the film would be unsaleable in the US and elsewhere (no American involvement).
But then you never know; I was amazed that Master and Commander got made. My Dad hates it as he has read all the O'Brien books, and enjoys the details on sailing and rigging. I said, "Yes Dad, thats all called the set..."
I have no particular axe to grind with either SPR or BoB; they are about American units, so I wouldn't expect the British to feature much. SPR isn't fantastically accurate, but it is good entertainment, and at least they tried to get things looking right (even though Das Reich didn't have any Tigers of course, and all the walking along skylines and bunching up still makes me wince). Anyway it's Spielbergs elegy for his fathers generation so who am I to rag it?
No we can't blame the Yanks for not talking us up, it's our own lot we have to blame. It's kind of like we stopped making war films after "Ice Cold in Alex" and "A Bridge Too Far". "Oh we've done all that to death luvvie..."
Incidentally, when my daughters did WW2 in History, the teacher showed them SPR, so no wonder our kids don't know about British involvement (naturally I put them straight on a few things and we went to great uncle Joe's grave in Bayeux).

As for portrayal in movies, I would take "The Longest Day" over SPR any time, bad acting and all. It tells the better story as far as the events. Several of the actors were actual participants in the real event. When Zanuck pitched his appeal to make the movie, which was going to be cut to pay for "Cleopatra", Zanuck went before the board of directors and made a personal appeal, pointing out that several of the board had also been involved in the Normandy invasion. They not only agreed to keep "The Longest Day" in production, but put Zanuck in charge of the studio.

The scene in which the British beach master, Colin Maud, bashes the Universal Carrier with his shillelagh is real, and Colin Maud actually loaned the actor, Kenneth Moore, the walking stick he had used there. The actor who played John Howard at Pegasus bridge was actually there. Gert Frobe, who plays Kaffeekanne, was an actual member of the Nazi party who hid and protected Jews during the war.

One thing Ambrose did point out about the US Navy. The two old battleships present were considered expendable. The invasion of Saipan just a few days later involved a lot more firepower.

I would like to see more movies like "The Longest Day" simply and specifically because it told the more complete story, from multiple points of view.