Hi!

I want to discuss the role of the horse in society. Both military and civilian.

During WWII horses was used in number, especially by the Russians, Poles and Germans. But how about other countries?
Especially the British? I suspect that Americans had very few horses from what I can tell.

Also when started horses to disappear from normal life? I guess this happens in the early fifties due to the explotional development of the automobil and the growth of economy. It would be normal that they started to disappear first from larger cities and then in smaller towns.

But can we say that the horse still was around in the seventies in everyday life?

Cheers

I can remember in the mid fifties there being a horse drawn cart in my town, a classic New Englan mill town, population of maybe 20,000 at the time, in central Massachusetts. It would come around selling some kind of food in my grandparents' neighborhood. The Amish cuture still uses horses rather than mechanical power for their carts. By the 60's, however, I would venture that horses had been shifted to recreational and ceremonial use only in all but the most rural of communities or in farming applications. They are still used in some cities for specific police work, such as crowd control.

I'm not sure if you want to include mules and donkeys but the U.S. Army made heavy use of those in Italy as late as 1945.

Several books make mention of the fact that U.S. troops were surpised the Germans were still using horse drawn wagons after D-Day.

I seem to remember reading about the last use of US cavalry horses in action in the Philipines in 1941 or early 1942. Wiki has some Info on that: Wiki Cavalry

The Swiss Army must have been one of the last armies to abandon cavalry horeses in 1972/73. It's in German, but you might get some Info anyway: http://www.kavallerieschwadron.ch/.

Cheerio!

Like Al, I remember horse carts in my neighborhood during the 50's and early 60's. Usually the produce guy, and the junkmans wagons. (Our early recycling guys by the way as they actually paid you on the spot for your metal junk, copper, brass, aluminum, steel, cast iron etc, plus anything else they deemed they could resell.)

I think you need to make a distinction between developed and developing countries. In Africa certainly horses are still very much part of everyday life, particularly in the more rural areas. In more developed areas such as the cities, though, you'll still see horses (albeit extremely malnourished in most cases) drawing "junkman" carts.

As for WWII, the British (at least the 8th Army for certain) used horses. My late maternal Grand-Father served as an officer in North Africa, the Middle East and Italy and was some how heavily involved with horses as part of his role - unfortunately I don't recall the stories he told us as kids.

Thanks for all your chipping in.

My experience is from early childhood in the early seventies. Where at my parents summerplace occasianally a horse drawn cart showed up to sell fresh fish and beverage.

Stefan.
Danke, die Deutsche sprache ist kein problem für mich.

Rudi.
Thanks for pointing that out. Naive as I was I had only the western world in mind.

Has anyone read Keegans book, A history of warfare? Its very interesting regarding the taming of the horse. Although I dont agree about his conclussions of Clausewitz or his descriptions of the culture in Viking society.

Ive been thinking of this subject for a long time. As the horse has been so important to us for about 1400 years, or more? Then suddenly replaced in a few years by the automobile?

It came back yesterday when I saw the movie, Changelling, and was a little disturbed of the lack of horses in it?

Another thing is the love of horse I have seen with amost every man that have served or worked with them. Thinking especially of J R R Tolkiens fictional people Rohan with the background as he served in a cavalry regiment.

Cheers

They disappeared?

Hi

The South African Defence Force had mounted units for border patrol as late as the early 1980's. In many respects these units provided access to terrain considered inacessible to vehicles.

Just thought you may be interested.

Regards
Garth

Good point, Garth. A horse also makes less noise and leaves less scent (than an armoured car) when patrolling in the bush.

Actually (Horse) Mounted Police units were reintroduced in the Cape Town CBD a few years back. They're used in NY as well aren't they?

The US and Coallition (?) forces in the Afgah have also been known to use horse mounted units.

A 5th Group ODA became famous for having their photos taken on horseback in afghanistan back in '02. We used camels there a few times. SOCOM still offers a pack animal course. I still have the February 2000 FM 31-27:
Pack Animals in Support of Army Special Operations Forces.

Thanks Rob - I remember seeing a book about their "adventures" in the bookstore downstairs.

The Belgian police is using horses for ceremonial duties, but in the summer also for patrols in the capital Brussels.

Durign demonstrations they sometimes use this cavalry against as a deterent to violent demonstrators

How about all of the working horses up in Montana and Wyoming and areas up that way? I'm certain that they are unaware that they have disappeared.

Matt

My father served in the British Army, joining the King's Dragoon Guards as a Boy Trumpeter, I think in 1928 when he was fourteen.
At that time, there were very many mounted units in the British Army - not just Cavalry (and Yeomanry - territorial cavalry regiments), but Artillery, the Army Service Corps, Engineers and Military Police all had mounted or horse-drawn units.
Horses also served as pack animals, as did mules, especially in some of the farther flung corners of the Empire.

In the 1930's, the British Army underwent what my father called the 'mechanisation rot' and many units lost their horse strength in favour of mechanical transport (many of the British Army's horses ended up being sold to, of all places, Germany*).
As a cavalryman and a horseman, my father had no desire to be cooped up in a tank or armoured car and, as Lance Corporal, applied to transfer to the Military Police as they still had mounted units.
He went to Egypt with the MPs in the 1930's and served some four years there before returning to the UK on the eve of the war.
That's about the time he was promoted to Corporal and had his horse replaced by a motorcycle.

He went to France with the BEF in 1939 as an MP in command of a motorcycle section, and ended up in a very cold Belgium for Christmas 1940.
As the front was relatively static, he 'acquired' some horses from a local Belgian unit and patrolled on those at times.
He told me that although the Germans were often patrolling the same areas, the only fire exchanged was desultory and harassing.

When the balloon went up, the horses were long forgotten - and had probably ended up in a pot, but not on my father's watch; he was not in favour of the Continental habit of eating horseflesh, an attitude I've inherited.
Dad ended up getting out at Dunkirk, one of the last off with a chunk of shrapnel in his ankle.

* The German purchase of British Army horses gave rise to the story of the British soldiers captured in 1940 and being marched off to a POW camp, under the command of a very correct German Army officer on horseback.
One of the Brits was an ex-cavalryman and recognised the horse (it's a story, right?) from his old regiment, and so he pipes up with something like "Ere, Bert, that German (insert colloquial phrase here)'s on one of our 'orses", whereupon the German officer is alleged to have looked down at them and replied "I may be a German (insert etc) but please remember that some of us speak excellent English..."

Back in the UK, my father was invalided out of the Army (due to his ankle wound) and became a civilian Policeman (walking round on foot - go figure...), until 1942 when what was euphemistically called the 'manpower crisis' cast the net for recruits ever wider and my father was able to re-enlist.
He ended up in India and then went to Burma as a Chindit.
By 1944, he was back in India and charged with rounding up horses and mules to air-dropped to units in Burma as pack animals - he flew in DC3's and 'encouraged' the animals out the door. Mules in particular had their vocal cords severed by veterinary staff, to prevent inopportune braying in the presence of the the forces of Imperial Japan.

He was back in Britain in 1946, with his wife and family.
Based in Aldershot, he was instrumental in setting up the first mounted Military police unit after the war - horses were still seen as useful in patrolling some of the more remote corners of the Army's training areas.
Well-trained horses can patrol relatively quietly, and offer the rider a superior view of the surrounding area.

By 1948, Dad had left the British Army but the mounted Military Police he helped reinstate only hung their colours up in the 1990s.
My family emigrated to New Zealand in the post-war migration boom, and arrived just in time for my father to join the NZ Army for the Korean War - he didn't go overseas but landed the challenging job of running the Services Corrective Establishment at Ardmore, a job he held until he left the Army in the early 60s.

No more Army horses, but Dad kept his own on Army land adjacent to Papakura Camp.
As kids, we all had horses, and I could ride before I could read - and I was reading at four..!
The size of the stable shrunk over the years, but Dad kept a horse till the day he died.

Thanks for reading, I hope that was of some interest.

acav out

I live in Surrey and I'm quite sure that horses are still very much around in everyday life. Sometimes I think the main crop around here is horse poo.

Hey Janne,
talk about timing,
I'm reading 'Horse Soldiers:The extraordinary story of a band of US soldiers who rode to victory in Afganhanistan' by Doug Stanton

Worth having a look at

Chris

If horses were replaced they better tell the Amish out here. Up till my move to the hoosier land, I was pretty involved with horses in N.Y. at several dude ranchs. It's still a viable buisness around the U.S. and we have horse drawn wagons here in Ft. Wayne as like the big cities for tourist. Most seem to be well cared for though you will see some that are not. Big cities still use mounted police for cerimonies and riot controll world wide. Ever stand up to a horse, he wins, you loose. And those who do have experiance with horses will tell you that there is a bond between you and him that is special. There are many documented cases where a rider was hurt/ thrown ect. and the horse wont budge waiting on it's rider. The horsemanship and partnership between man and horse was depicted perfectly with the riders of the rohan in the movie. Horses are more partners than anything else. My wife wants me to buy a harley when I do retire ( ya, right) but I got my mind set on a quater horse, can go where no bike has or will go, the middle of no-where and peace of mind. Yehaa!

If you want to go where vehicles can't get a riding trained mule. Mules can go places horses can't and won't go into unsafe areas period. You can ride a dumb horse off a cliff, a mule will just stop no matter what you do.

Having spent 12 years in the household cav i can def say the British army still uses horses today, we have 2 squadrons one LG the other RHG/D in London for duties.



These guys are still tought the finest traditions of horsemanship and cavalry skills that gave the regiments there great names all those years ago.
Even though both regiments are cvrt recon today the mounted side of the regiment is still seen as a must do by both the officers and enlisted men.What is the point of joining a cav reg if your never going to sit on a horse.

In 12 years service with the RHG/D i never did and regret it just a little bit.

I believe the SAS used mules to transport weapons and kit up the Jebel Akhdar in Oman in the '60s, as did the Mujahideen in Afghanistan in the '80s. The Chindits used elephants in Burma as walking guntrucks.

Today, the Sri Lanka Army still uses horses in the same role as the Household Cavalry shown above -- ceremonial duties -- including the Armoured Corps band, which is mounted. However, our police still use mounted officers for traffic duty in downtown Colombo -- I think the London police do too.

The horse was always an imported animal here in SL, and was only ever used by the military, police and aristocracy in everyday life. In the utility role (drawing carts, ploughs, and other transport duties) it has always been bullocks, water buffalo, and elephants -- and these are still a common sight in rural areas.

OK

Military:

The U.S. Troops currently in Afghanastan have horseback soldiers for areas where no vehicle is practical.

Civilian:

Down here, equestrians are still very common.

Ed.