As Phantom Major was displeased with the previous topic, I decided to start a new one hopefully to inspire him to do the same.
I think Douglass MacArthur was the greatest Prima Donna leader. He set himself up in Austrailia with a web of staff people like a king and his court, lived in a virtual palace during his stay in Japan and defied the President of the US in Korea. Was he good, hell yea His island hopping campaign and of course Inchon were brilliant, risky and most importantly saved lives.
History Club
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
Hosted by Frank Amato
Leader- biggest prima donna
blaster76
Member Since: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 05:33 PM UTC
brandydoguk
Member Since: October 04, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 06:37 PM UTC
Hi Blaster, good one this. I would nominate Montgomery for this one. He seemed unable to realise that after D-day the Americans were the major force in the war in western Europe, and seemed to look on them as amateurs while HE was the ultimate professional.
However this should not detract from the fact that he was just the man to turn the tide of war when he was given command of the 8th army in the desert, and his promotion to commanding the landing forces on D-day was surely the right decision. I believe General Bradley said that he had no problems with Monty during the D-day battles, it was after when Montgomery's high opinion of himself caused problems.
I think it must be this facet of Monty's temperament which was his biggest strength (supreme confidence), but also his biggest weakness (arrogance).
However this should not detract from the fact that he was just the man to turn the tide of war when he was given command of the 8th army in the desert, and his promotion to commanding the landing forces on D-day was surely the right decision. I believe General Bradley said that he had no problems with Monty during the D-day battles, it was after when Montgomery's high opinion of himself caused problems.
I think it must be this facet of Monty's temperament which was his biggest strength (supreme confidence), but also his biggest weakness (arrogance).
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 11:50 PM UTC
Guys-- I would place Charles DeGaulle right up their with the best of the prima donas. He was a capable leader and saw the advantages of armor on the battlefield well before any of his countrymen realized the potential of this weapon system. At the same time, he was hardly the ideal Ally. Opiniated and difficult to work with, he was a constant irritant to the Allies both during and after the War.
DJ
DJ
mongo_mel
Member Since: June 04, 2002
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Posted: Monday, July 07, 2003 - 12:34 AM UTC
I think I'd be inclined to vote for Herman Goering. The very epitomy of excess.
Or, if you want to take it up a notch from military to political leader... Adolph Hitler might qualify for the title. With Benito Mussolini a close second.
Or, if you want to take it up a notch from military to political leader... Adolph Hitler might qualify for the title. With Benito Mussolini a close second.
warlock0322
Member Since: January 13, 2003
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Posted: Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:26 AM UTC
I would have to nominate George McClellan for this distinctive honor. It is true he was a great organizer, but he also never took responsibility for his failures. Showed open contentment for his superiors and thought he was more important than than the job he was asked to perform.
GSPatton
Member Since: September 04, 2002
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Posted: Monday, July 07, 2003 - 11:17 AM UTC
Sir Bernard Montgomery will go down as one of the biggest prima donnas in military history. Totally overrated as a soldier his "victories" came as a result of his enemy running out of everything or overwhelming firepower and support by the American.
His one great operation Market-Garden was a bollocks up diaster and an entire British para regiment was sacrificed because Monte would rather have lost the men than admit the folly of his plan.
George Patton was also a prima donna - but at least he could walk the walk.
His one great operation Market-Garden was a bollocks up diaster and an entire British para regiment was sacrificed because Monte would rather have lost the men than admit the folly of his plan.
George Patton was also a prima donna - but at least he could walk the walk.
brandydoguk
Member Since: October 04, 2002
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Posted: Monday, July 07, 2003 - 04:52 PM UTC
Hi GSPatton, I think you are right about the Market-Garden attack being a total disaster, but I think it was more the fault of the commander, General "Boy" Browning than Montgomery. There seems to have been the attitude with Browning that he wanted to get his troops into action asap before the war was over, and the plans were rushed through and implimented without propper thought, landing zones to far from the bridge, not getting the full division into Arnhem in a single lift meaning troops were tied to defending DZ and LZ sites, etc. Mind you, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Martin
Martin
DutchBird
#068
Member Since: April 09, 2003
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Posted: Monday, July 07, 2003 - 07:23 PM UTC
Brandydoguk,
just with the little I know of it, operation Market Garden was doomed from the beginning. Put it this way: You can count yourselves lucky the airborne troops around Nijmegen were not lost also. Only the smallest bridge to cross was blown up, and because of Frost holding out as long as he did, the Germans had to use a ferry 30k away for a couple of days to get their heavy stuff across the Rhine.
If the bridge at Grave had gone, one of the US airborne divisions might have been history too...
I have to read up on it though, but IMHO Patton is a bit overrated also. Yes, it were the American troops who broke out of the bocage country. Yet on the other hand, the Brits had tied up most of the German armor (though IMHO more by accident then by design !!).
After the Falaise-pocket, as far as I know, the Germans had basically lost most of their heavy equipment, besides many troops, and were in complete disarray. They blew through the German lines on all fronts. And it took the Germans a month or so to recover... and when that had happened, it became a whole lot more dfficult at once.
just with the little I know of it, operation Market Garden was doomed from the beginning. Put it this way: You can count yourselves lucky the airborne troops around Nijmegen were not lost also. Only the smallest bridge to cross was blown up, and because of Frost holding out as long as he did, the Germans had to use a ferry 30k away for a couple of days to get their heavy stuff across the Rhine.
If the bridge at Grave had gone, one of the US airborne divisions might have been history too...
I have to read up on it though, but IMHO Patton is a bit overrated also. Yes, it were the American troops who broke out of the bocage country. Yet on the other hand, the Brits had tied up most of the German armor (though IMHO more by accident then by design !!).
After the Falaise-pocket, as far as I know, the Germans had basically lost most of their heavy equipment, besides many troops, and were in complete disarray. They blew through the German lines on all fronts. And it took the Germans a month or so to recover... and when that had happened, it became a whole lot more dfficult at once.
210cav
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Monday, July 07, 2003 - 11:30 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Brandydoguk,
just with the little I know of it, operation Market Garden was doomed from the beginning. Put it this way: You can count yourselves lucky the airborne troops around Nijmegen were not lost also. Only the smallest bridge to cross was blown up, and because of Frost holding out as long as he did, the Germans had to use a ferry 30k away for a couple of days to get their heavy stuff across the Rhine.
If the bridge at Grave had gone, one of the US airborne divisions might have been history too...
I have to read up on it though, but IMHO Patton is a bit overrated also. Yes, it were the American troops who broke out of the bocage country. Yet on the other hand, the Brits had tied up most of the German armor (though IMHO more by accident then by design !!).
After the Falaise-pocket, as far as I know, the Germans had basically lost most of their heavy equipment, besides many troops, and were in complete disarray. They blew through the German lines on all fronts. And it took the Germans a month or so to recover... and when that had happened, it became a whole lot more dfficult at once.
I'd disagree with a few points. The St Lo breakout follows several attempts by the British to break out of the Normandy beach enclave. Patton's Third Army exploits it after Collin's VII Corps creates the breech. Once free of the beach area, the divisions of the Third Army (I speak here principally of the 4th and 6th Armored Divisions) roar out and continue a hot pursuit of the Germans. Market Garden is a beautiful plan. There was every reason to believe it would work. The execution failed due to a number of factors---weather, poor roads, lack of air ground support, but most all aggressive leadership. No one was out there kicking butt and taking names. A needless disaster.
DJ
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