Western Australia, Australia
Member Since: June 05, 2007
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 03:23 AM UTC
So how much do you know about your ancestors, in particular, military veterans?
I have popped this question to many of my friends, the usual response is along the lines of "my grandad fought the Germans", and that's all they know. I think it's even sadder when their parents don't know much else.
So do you know as much about the military servicemen in your family as you would like to? What are the common difficulties getting in the way of research and discoveries? Don't know where to start, have you enquired about records but told they couldn't be located?
I don't want to appear condemning! I understand not everyone has a passion for genealogy, and that's fine. Military History and genealogy is a huge passion of mine and I'm sure there are many experienced genealogists here that could offer research assistance too.
Chas
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England - West Midlands, United Kingdom
Member Since: September 12, 2007
entire network: 1,548 Posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 04:08 AM UTC
Hi Chas, my Dad is ex-MIl, I have taken what stuff he has like his medals. I have researched a bit into them to find out more about the first Gulf War. He has still got his regiment cap badge and others. It led me to the 7th armoured Bridage. The RAC The Royal Armoured Corps of transport. Find out as much as you can then take it and trying and dig deeper. Interent is brilliant for research.
#029
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Member Since: December 23, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 04:45 AM UTC
My late father was a pilot in the RAF, and was trained at #1 BFTS in Terrell Texas during late '44 early '45.
One of my uncles was a tanker, armed recon in a "Honey" ( American Stuart?). He was involved in Operation Market Garden.
Another uncle was a member of the "Glorious Glosters" and was captured at what is now known as "Gloster Hill" during the Battle Of The Imjin River and held as a POW by the Chinese.
Nige
It's not the same, better, but not the same...
Wales, United Kingdom
Member Since: July 20, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 05:02 AM UTC
The earliest (known) military involvement in the family is a campaign medal with a clasp for the siege of Bhurtpoor (1825-6), for a trooper serving with the 23rd Light Dragoons, then one for the Crimea (Coldstream Guards). Several for the Great War - Grandfather (CEF, seriously wounded), two great uncles, one killed 3rd Ypres, his brother badly shell-shocked.
For the second time around, there seem to have been several lorry-drivers in the family, though my aunt managed to destroy most of the letters and uniforms left behind - and then got interested in family history! My father enlisted in 1944 but wasn't old enough for overseas service until June 1945.
EDIT: Another relative was a Bofors crewman in Burma, fortunately in the later phases of the war so there wasn't much possibility of his being a PoW of the Japanese, unlike my headmaster who never really recovered from his treatment after being captured at Singapore.
David
Archaeology is destruction - providing you do it properly
Barlands Farm Model Boat Club 1993
Massachusetts, United States
Member Since: May 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 05:42 AM UTC
My father enlisted in the Army Air Force too late for active service in WWII. His older brother was in the Seabees. His other brothers were too old or young for Korea, but had various enlistments. Both my grandfathers are listed as a WW I era veteran, but i don't believe either got to Europe. My two maternal uncles were in the army in Europe. The next place I have any certainty goes back to 1666 when Pierre Richer (dit LaFleche) came over from France with the Carringnan-Salieres Regiment to help subdue the Iroquois in New France.
My father-in-law joined the army at 16 and served with the 36th Texas (and possibly th 82 AB) in North Africa, Italy, France, Belgium (the Bulge), Germany and Austria.
This is him (the young guy in the middle) about to land in North Africa
Wings & Wheels Modelers-IPMS
"Whatever your hands find to do
You must do with all your heart."
From "Through Your Hands" by John Hiatt
Indiana, United States
Member Since: October 16, 2002
entire network: 5,272 Posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 06:28 AM UTC
Wow, Al. I have seen that picture a hundred times...
Maternal Grandfather was in the Marines and went to France during WW1. I have his full uniform in my closet. My mom has his dog tags hanging on his picture over at my parent's house.
Couple of uncles on my mother's side served with the Marines in Korea. Dad was a fireman in the Air Force during the Korean war, stationed at Offutt. Brother was in the 3/2 ACR in Germany, late 70's early 80's.
Shaun
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." Gerald Ford, August 12, 1974
#029
England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
Member Since: December 23, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 06:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
My father enlisted in the Army Air Force too late for active service in WWII. His older brother was in the Seabees. His other brothers were too old or young for Korea, but had various enlistments. Both my grandfathers are listed as a WW I era veteran, but i don't believe either got to Europe. My two maternal uncles were in the army in Europe. The next place I have any certainty goes back to 1666 when Pierre Richer (dit LaFleche) came over from France with the Carringnan-Salieres Regiment to help subdue the Iroquois in New France.
My father-in-law joined the army at 16 and served with the 36th Texas (and possibly th 82 AB) in North Africa, Italy, France, Belgium (the Bulge), Germany and Austria.
This is him (the young guy in the middle) about to land in North Africa
As soon as I saw that photo I knew I'd seen it somewhere before!
I hope your getting royalties
Nige
It's not the same, better, but not the same...
England - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: January 06, 2007
entire network: 3,661 Posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 07:26 AM UTC
my great uncle was in the reme, i have a vast pictorial archive of what he did and where he was,
my nans uncle was on the hood, yet he did not die in combat, in a Pre war accident he burnt himself, and died from the dye in his clothes that had been burnt onto him, poisoned his body, not a nice way to go.
mums grandad made compressors for the americans in the war.
pre wars another older generation of my family was a policeman and had an unfortunate incident with some ww1 shells sone kids had reported on Dartmoor.
another relative was strafed my a Me109, whilst he was poughing a field with his horse, he ducked down behind the horse, he lived, the horse didnt,
some of these arent very military, but i find them interesting.
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Dublin, Ireland
Member Since: November 27, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 07:37 AM UTC
My grandfather was in the Munster Fusiliers and fought in the Boer War as a boy soldier and stayed in til the end of WW. My Uncle Tim served in the British Army in the thirties, deserted , couldn't stomach civvy life and rejoined using my father's name
served in the Royal Artillery through WW2 in NWE and died while doing a highland sword dance in the mess (drink may have been involved, lots of drink) sometime in the fifties. Wierd thing is his grave bears my fathers name. My father and all his brothers served in the Irish Army during the forties in what we call here "The Emergency" and the rest of the world calls World War Two.
Pat
work to become not to acquire
Massachusetts, United States
Member Since: May 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 08:18 AM UTC
We gave him that book (after I read it) I got a kick out of it since it had nothing to do with where and when the picture was taken.
Wings & Wheels Modelers-IPMS
"Whatever your hands find to do
You must do with all your heart."
From "Through Your Hands" by John Hiatt
Utah, United States
Member Since: December 14, 2007
entire network: 3,389 Posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 08:26 AM UTC
My Father served with the occupation forces post WWII in Germany. His two brothers served in the army during the war. One told so many stories we don't know what to believe. My Grandfather (paternal) served in the infantry in WWI, but was stationed stateside. My great great grandfather (maternal) served in the Union army and fought at Gettysburgh. Going further back I had ancestors who fought in the war of 1812 and the American Revolution. My father in law served with the Marines during Vietnam, but was the only one from his training platoon that was not sent overseas. His father snuck into the army at 15 and served in WWII in Italy and Western Europe.
Great nations do not fall because of external aggression; they first erode and decay inwardly, so that, like rotten fruit, they fall of themselves. The strength of a country is the sum total of the moral strength of the individuals in that country.
Ezr
Rhode Island, United States
Member Since: December 08, 2002
entire network: 833 Posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 01:17 PM UTC
My uncle served as a gunner on a B-24 named "Diana Lynn" with the 15th AF, 456th BG(H), 745th BS, stationed in Foggia Italy during WWII. My banner is a dedication to him and all the men who served.
He would tell me stories of his service but the one that stands out in my mind most is of the time he was grounded for a mission due to eardrum problems. The found a replacement for the mission and during the bomb run over Bremen Germany his plane was hit and went down. The majority of the crew survived but had he been on it he would have probably been killed or at least been a prisoner for the rest of the war.
----Nothing is "idiot proof" because they will always build a better idiot.------
----Never try to teach a pig to whistle. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.----
CMOT
Editor-in-ChiefEngland - South West, United Kingdom
Member Since: May 14, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 03:33 PM UTC
My Grandfather on my mother’s side started his military career in the London Irish before joining the Royal Ulster Rifles (I still have his cap badge and hackle in a glass display case with his medals). He fought in North Africa with the 1st Army, and then continued up through Italy. He saw Mussolini hanging and was around their when Etna went bang during the war.
My wife’s family
My father in law was the youngest of five brothers. He joined the Royal Artillery at 15 (lying about his age in order to fight during World War II) and saw the last three months of the WW2. He was in Palestine when the Jewish state came into being and was then part of the first troop deployment to Korea. He was also one of those who retreated with the Gloster’s from the Imjin River. He left the Army as a sergeant intending to join the Australian Artillery, however his wife was against it and he became a painter and decorator instead.
Another flew in Stirling bombers at the start of the war as a flight engineer with the RAF, he then continued onto Lancaster’s. His war finished in 43 in a military hospital due to injuries received in combat and no longer being fit to serve. He was awarded the Golden caterpillar during his service and survived have 3 aircraft shot out from under him, he was the only survivor of a Lancaster which was hit by AA fire which exploded killing everyone on board, he survived being the only person not strapped in and fell to earth with no parachute (which is where as I understand he received the injuries which ended his war).
One had run away from home and joined the Merchant Navy before joining the Royal Navy when War started. He served on a battleship (I cant remember its name) and subs, however due to severe sea sickness he was sent to the Med on MTB’s having several sunk with him onboard. I believe we have 4 telegrams saying missing presumed dead.
One was the youngest British officer in the officer corps during WW2 at one point and he was expected to go a long way, however his desire to see action ended his career in Germany and he was invalided out of the military.
The last and eldest brother served in an unknown infantry unit finishing his war minus a lung and some ribs to a German machine gun, but he did survive.
#001
California, United States
Member Since: February 09, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 03:58 PM UTC
My late father was a fighter pilot in WWII. He was stationed in Bodney UK and flew P-51's with the 487thFS in the 352ndFG. He died of natural causes in 1985.
My godfather was a member of the same group in WWII and ended the war with 10 kills. He went on to fly P-51'a then F-86's in Korea. When Viet Nam came about he was too old to fly fighters so they assigned him to a C-47 gunship. He was killed when his a/c was shot down in 1967.
My step-mother's first husband (deceased, early 60's, hit by drunk driver) trained B-17 pilots and crews in Kansas in the 40's
My Grandfather (mother's side) was a translator with the American Expeditionary Force in WWI.
I remember as a small child my grandparents had a book of photographs with pictures of Civil War veterans that I was told were our relatives. I wish I knew whatever happened to that book!
Cheers,
C.
Western Australia, Australia
Member Since: June 05, 2007
entire network: 2,166 Posts
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 05:11 PM UTC
Wow, these are some fantastic stories. Looks like most of you have done in depth research.
One of my plans is to set up a website with my 3rd cousin, a very talented Geneologist (we discovered each other through family research). We will offer assistance in research, and a public webpage to display the stories of your military heritage. Would anybody be interested in this?
Starting from very little available information, my cousin and I were able to write a document on my great-uncle, a Battle of Britain pilot. The document was sent to the Battle of Britain Historical Society, which displays it on their website.
BOBHS (click Airmens' Stories). This is the type of thing we will offer, but with better formatting and author admin access.
Keep posting stories, I'm finding them all interesting to read.
Chas
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Victoria, Australia
Member Since: July 28, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, April 09, 2009 - 05:27 PM UTC
I've traced my maternal grandfather's side back to the early 1800's when he arrived in the Cape as a soldier serving in one of the British rifle regiments. My paternal side (the Richardson side) can only be traced back as far as the turn of the last century, as my great-great-great-great GF was a Swedish immigrant to South Africa who's surname was Anglicised to Richardson. As Sweden only adopted the paternal naming convention in the early 1900's (IIRC) there's little way to trace much further.
Both GF's served in WW2 as part of the 8th Army. My own father joined the South African Army's Signal Corps at the age of 16 and served during the Bush Wars. He was then later employed as a civvie by the SA Navy's electronic communications divisions. Much of what he did was classified, but as he was employed pre and post the '94 elections he saw a lot from various angles.
Beware the populist demagogues at the head of private armies
England - West Midlands, United Kingdom
Member Since: August 15, 2008
entire network: 337 Posts
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2009 - 02:31 AM UTC
A few thoughts mainly pertaining to the original question.
Many of us will have relatives who served,particularly in the two world wars. Speaking from personal experience one of the problems finding out details of their service is their own reticence or unwillingless to speak about their experiences. My late maternal grandfather was a career soldier (don't forget that unlike our continental neighbours Britain has never maintained a large standing army) who after the debacle at Dunkirk was largely involved in the training of a "new" and larger army. He was attached to the Ox and Bucks. Their losses on D day and the period thereafter affected him so badly that he developed chronic asthma and finished the war guarding German POWs.
He would happily talk about his time at the POW camp and the prisoners and never expressed any personal resentment towards the Germans, infact quite the reverse. As a professional soldier he had great respect for the achievments of his adversaries.
As for the period before that he simply would not talk about it to us. My mother has told me that she thinks her father may have talked with some of his old comrades and she does remember their visits ("they always had shiny shoes")
It is a great shame really. That generation were made from the same stuff as us,they were just taught to put up with it and keep their mouths shut,not to moan or show any weakness.
My own father served in the Royal Navy largely during peacetime. His only active service was the Suez crisis (another debacle). He talked of it as if it was a sort of armed day trip to Port Said. It was only when I was much older that he told me a French soldier had actually bled to death in his helicopter during a casevac flight. He never would give me any more information than that. It obviously still upset him 25 years later and my dad was not one for showing emotion.
Not very cheery but then these things aren't. Therein lies the lesson.
Steve
Utah, United States
Member Since: December 14, 2007
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2009 - 03:05 AM UTC
I have two great uncles who served in the army in WWII who won't talk about it at all. I have one uncle who was in the army during Korea, but was stateside and used as an extra in "Merrill's Mauraders" and "The Devil's Brigade". I have spoken with a lot of older people-some veterans and some not-, and many feel that no one wants to hear them ramble on about the past. Even the average or boring stories can hold a tremendous amount of information and interest. My wife's grandfather is generally treated like an idiot by his family. They warned me about his rambling on. Because I listen to him I have learned all kinds of things about him and what he did that his own children never knew because they didn't want to.
He was a young man during WWII, and tells about life at the home front. Because he worked at a pharmacy (chemist), he had access to things no one else did. Because he was curious and inventive, he would make home made explosives from chemicals from his work. Fireworks were unavailable because of the war, so he was very popular. His favorite was taking a .303 shell casing, filling it with his explosive mix, and blowing it up. He set it up as a contact explosive and placed it on a trolley track, and almost knocked the trolley over. He looked for something heavier and set it on the rail lines of the Canadian Pacific Rail Road. A freight train hit it and came screeching to a halt (one small explosive charge on the track was a warning that the rail line was blocked ahead or there was an oncoming train). He got in a bit of trouble over that.
My wife has become interested in genealogy and historical information because of the wealth of knowlege that people had that simply hasn't been passed down. I am trying to teach my children to listen, and tell them to pester old people all the time to find out about them.
Salt Lake City has one of the largest genealogy and family history data bases in the world. It is available to anyone in the world. There are other databases out there as well. There is a positive trend in gathering stories of the past. I hope it continues.
Great nations do not fall because of external aggression; they first erode and decay inwardly, so that, like rotten fruit, they fall of themselves. The strength of a country is the sum total of the moral strength of the individuals in that country.
Ezr
Western Australia, Australia
Member Since: June 05, 2007
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2009 - 03:27 AM UTC
Steven and Russ,
Those are good sum-ups of the very common problem of tight lipped veterans. There is a fine line between gathering information from, and upsetting veterans. Two ways of gathering information without upsetting are:
-Interview the veteran at their own home, or in an environment where they feel most comfortable.
-Turn the recorder off and stop writing when the veteran shows signs of becoming upset. Remember what is being said and write it down later.
-Try and interview the veteran with their spouse or a close relative/ friend present. You will find that the veteran will feel more secure and open to sharing emotional stories.
From my experience interviewing a couple of local veterans, I've found these small things do make a difference to the amount of info gained. We have to realise and be sensitive to the immense suffering these veterans went through.
Chas
Like Military History? Check out the History Club forum here on the Kitmaker Net.
England - West Midlands, United Kingdom
Member Since: August 15, 2008
entire network: 337 Posts
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:39 PM UTC
Quoted Text
. I believe we have 4 telegrams saying missing presumed dead.
My grandmother showed me one such telegram after my granfather had passed away. He had boarded a destroyer off Dunkirk which was subsequently bombed causing many casualities. He was posted as missing presumed dead. It turned out he had volunteered to go back ashore to "spike" some guns thus avoiding the bombs. He eventually returned on another vessel and simply took a train home! He had no money but the railway staff let him board the trains ticketless anyway. He turned up the day after the telegram, giving grandma a bit of a shock.
Again he never told me this story himself. I had to wait until he was gone to hear about it. I would love to know what he got up to in the days between returning ashore and finally getting back accross the channel. I guess we'll never know now. Sad really.
Steve
Western Australia, Australia
Member Since: June 05, 2007
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Posted: Sunday, April 12, 2009 - 03:52 PM UTC
He was very lucky Steve.
You could try getting in contact with veterans who were at Dunkirk. You might be lucky and find someone else who returned to shore to spike the guns. You could also try families of Dunkirk veterans... they might be able to give you insight into what your grandfather went through?
Chas
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Sri Lanka
Member Since: May 05, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 08:07 AM UTC
Fortunately my family has kept some records of the basic happenings since we first arrived in Sri Lanka (which was then Ceylon). However, it's very sketchy on unit names and suchlike, particularly in the earlier years.
The first Blackers were Irish mercenaries fighting for the Dutch East India Company when the island was partially conquored by Holland in the 17th century.
A Blacker was a sergeant in a British infantry regiment when the Brits took Kandy and completed its conquest of the country.
Two brothers served in the Boer War and three in WW1.
My grandfather, Mervin, and his older brother, Quintus, served in the Ceylon Light Infantry in WW2, the latter as the RSM. My grandfather fought in Libya, Egypt, and Palestine. His brother-in-law was lost at Dunkirk, believed killed.
I myself served in the 6th Sinha Rifles of the SL Army in the early '90s, fighting the Tigers.
England - South East, United Kingdom
Member Since: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, April 16, 2009 - 10:05 AM UTC
My maternal great-grandfather died in the 1920s from stomach cancer allegedly caused by the effects of being gassed in WW1 (regiment and place of the incident unknown despite research). My paternal grandfather was in a 'reserved occupation' during WW2, but served in the Home Guard. It's only about 5 years ago that we found out that the company he worked for (Dawnay - civil engineering contractors) worked on the Mulberry Harbours used after D-Day.
My wifes family has a far longer tradition of service (genealogy is her hobby). One of her ancestors, William Johnston served in the Kings Royal Rifle Corps, descendants of the Naopleonic wars 60th Royal American. He married in Novia Scotia and had three children born succesively in Ireland (Linnen Hall Barracks, Dublin), Poona in India and in Natal South Africa. Her father faked his birth certificate to enlist in the Royal Artillery in WW1 but was caught and sent to the army school in Maidstone - we have his school certificate. In the 1920s he served in the Royal Horse Artillery until his time expired and he became a photographer - a trade he continued after joining the RAF in 1938. He served through North Africa with 203 squadron and then after returning to the UK with 2PRU completing 12 years reserve service at Tangmere in the 1950s. He then worked for Air Chief Marshal Sir John Slessor as butler and valet (Slessors name is on Chrissie's christening certificate)
We have a good collection of glass plate slides and negatives from Egypt etc, all the plates have the WD arrow in the bottom corner! Also a box of watercolour paints with a map of North Africa scratched into the lid, naming places such as Tobruk, Alexandria and LG103.
His service documents are in the collection of the museum at Tangmere.
Bulldog#3
Grumpy Old Modeller No1
Growing old disgracefully!
Canada
Member Since: December 29, 2008
entire network: 316 Posts
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Posted: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 - 02:03 PM UTC
I have some stories to add here.
My grandfather served in the Canadian army as an army reconnaissance soldier for the artillery. He fought in Holland and drove a bren gun carrier and a norton (i think it is called that) Motorcycle . My dad told me how he would always say that there was a constant ringing in his ear because of the artillery. One story my dad told me was how one morning he needed to go and check over a hill to see if the German soldiers had retreated. He asked his friend to come along but he didn't want to. My grandpa somehow persuaded him to come because he couldn't go alone. They checked over the hill and the germans ambushed them. His friend went crazy and ended up standing up and singing "home on the range" as he wanted to go home so badly. The German's shot him in the head. It is sad what war can really do to you. Another story is that they were driving along in the bren gun with a new recruit rookie soldier. The soldier found a Luger in a puddle and tried firing it. It didn't fire, so he presumed it was empty. He then proceded to put the luger against his head, joke "Look guys! I'm Hitler!" He pulled the trigger, and the Gun fired.
My Great Uncle was in the British 8th Army during world war two. He was in the battle of El alamien. During one battle, he captured over 100 Italian soldiers. While he marched them back, he and the soldiers were strafed by an Italian plane. The pilot didn't know that the Italian soldiers were on his side, and nearly killed half before he left. Being recognized by his actions quite a few times, the Germans and Italian put a bounty of (I think) 10,000 lira on him. Finally, he was captured by German's and taken to a prison camp. After spending a few weeks in the camp, he grew wrestless and escaped. He was spotted, and he and his friends ran for their lives. He remember that the Germans let out the hounds on him and he had to race up a stream to the top of a mountain. The next day he reached the top and went to an Italian partisan village where he lived in a cave and participated in Partisan actions for 10 months before being the town and camp was liberated by the British and Americans that landed in Italy.
He died recently.
If any one has living ancestors from the 8th army ask them if they knew George Piercy.
My Great great Uncle i think it was was killed overseas during world war one.
My great great grandpa was a surgeon during world war one. He suffered from shell shock and never recovered.
Some of my other ancestors fought the british when they tried to invade Scotland. (Like in the movie braveheart)
Some of these stories would make great models in my campaign "Ancestors in scale." Give it a thought!
I want to say thanks for all those that helped keep the world free.
M4A2Sherman
Western Australia, Australia
Member Since: June 05, 2007
entire network: 2,166 Posts
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Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 12:06 AM UTC
Quoted Text
My Great Uncle was in the British 8th Army during world war two. He was in the battle of El alamien. During one battle, he captured over 100 Italian soldiers. While he marched them back, he and the soldiers were strafed by an Italian plane. The pilot didn't know that the Italian soldiers were on his side, and nearly killed half before he left. Being recognized by his actions quite a few times, the Germans and Italian put a bounty of (I think) 10,000 lira on him. Finally, he was captured by German's and taken to a prison camp. After spending a few weeks in the camp, he grew wrestless and escaped. He was spotted, and he and his friends ran for their lives. He remember that the Germans let out the hounds on him and he had to race up a stream to the top of a mountain. The next day he reached the top and went to an Italian partisan village where he lived in a cave and participated in Partisan actions for 10 months before being the town and camp was liberated by the British and Americans that landed in Italy.
He died recently.
If any one has living ancestors from the 8th army ask them if they knew George Piercy.
Thanks for sharing this story. Very interesting. It seems unusual to me that a single soldier could be singled out for bounty by the enemy. Was he of a high rank?
Chas
Like Military History? Check out the History Club forum here on the Kitmaker Net.
