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Modeling in General
General discussions about modeling topics.
"What if" 1946 Interested?
bizzychicken
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 10:21 AM UTC
Gas was used on the Eastern Front, The Allieds were pushed back into the sea on D Day, That U Boat made it to Tokyo full of nasty Nazi tecnology etc, etc. The war dragged on 1946, 47, 48? The whole "What if" period as modellers is a place your imagination can go wild. Do you think, as modellers there is a big interest in these years? Do you think there is a big market for this period? Allied and Axis. It is mainly only covered by German subjects. What do you guys think? Cheers Geraint
bizzychicken
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 10:27 AM UTC
Sorry I dont mean in a Warhammer 40 k style. Cheers "Thinking out of the box" of plastic
panzergoth
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Posted: Sunday, March 29, 2009 - 04:17 PM UTC
Hi Geraint, there is a lot of possible diorama or modelling potential in the "what if' scenarios. You had the E- panzers that could have been in production, the Pershing, Infra-Red technology, Jets, etc. There also have been for years documentation/ or rumors of occupation forces getting killed and performing " guerilla" and mop up operations in Germany well into 1948 against pockets of resistance and "Werewolves" and die hard Nazis in remote areas. The "what if" potential is almost endless. I figured you were going in this direction, but I am not sure if that is your idea just that is what I got out of it
John_O
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Oost-Vlaanderen, Belgium
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 03:10 AM UTC
Yo G,

You know I'm EXTREMELY interested in this. Not that I would have ever wanted it to happen. But as you said, you can have your imagination run wild. In the last couple of months I've gathered tons of info (both internet and in books/mags) on the subject. I'm also really looking forward to the What if campaign. I'm gonna build the 'real' E-100, with the Trumpeter one as a base (check Panzer Tracts, it outclassed the Dragon one as far as being correct is concerned), the Cammet's Krupp turret, a Voyager upgrade, the Dragon E-100 tracks, ...
Further projects: E-25 Kügelblitz, Panther F, Maus II,

Cheers,

John
bizzychicken
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 07:43 AM UTC
Jim and John, What I am trying too say is if the war did drag on. Different outcomes to different battles, keeping it "Historic" Basically what types of weapon platforms would have evolved, Allied and Axis. Would the soviets carried on using the PPSH or would of the AK series, been issuied to troops? Or would they have not , because they handn't captured enough MP44's and not stolen the technology. How far would the Panther F had progressed before the E series had overtaken it. With the Allieds only foothold in Europe being Italy. Would they have stuck with the smaller Sherman and Cromwell, or gone on and built the Centurion? The development of the APC? etc "Paper panzers" seem to be more know about, more info etc. I would love to have knowen what the Soviets would have done if the KV and T34 factories had been captured. Its A dream place for modellers. John that E 100 sounds like its going to be the Dogs B.......... looking forward to seeing it LOL G
Damraska
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 01:08 PM UTC
Hi Geraint,

Given a scenario that significantly extended WWII, I suspect you would have seen four categories of 'new' weapon systems:

1) Real weapon systems becoming available at the end of WWII that saw little or no use because the war ended. In terms of armor, this category includes things like the Panther F, Zebra Mission vehicles, and the Centurion.

2) Variants of the machines in Category 1, produced quickly based on new battlefield requirements. This includes vehicles like tank based wreckers, self propelled artillery, troop carriers, assault guns, and so forth.

3) Real drawing board vehicles actually built with the additional time available in an extended war. This includes all those paper panzers and napkin scribbles actually made in WWII but never turned into actual machines and subject to evolution during development.

4) Vehicles not conceived of during WWII but likely similar to vehicles developed post war. The lessons learned in WWII drove the creation of post war vehicles. Had the war continued, those lessons would have produced similar vehicles at a faster rate.

I rarely see the nature of the battlefield discussed in these extended war scenarios. In the "Germany held out a few months longer" scenario, I suspect history would progress largely as it actually did. We may have seen a few Category 1 and Category 2 vehicles make it to the battlefield but that's about it.

More interesting scenarios involve Germany defeating one or more opponents early and thus keeping her industrial base much longer. A horrific example is the "Germany as liberator of Russia in 1942" scenario. With Russia defeated in 1942 and a friendly government in place, Germany never loses her armies in the East. She gains access to the abundant natural resources of Russia including oil and tank factories. These events would cause major changes in the war to follow. Germany could commit far greater resources to Africa. She could take more time developing the Panther and Tiger I. With no super heavy armor to fight in the east would Germany develop super heavy tanks? Clashes with American Pershings and British Centurions may have triggered such development, but later in the war and under the influence of different designs. How would Russian tanks influence German tank industry? Would the Germans mate the 75mm gun from the Panzer 4G to the T34 producing a horrific weapon available in massive numbers? I suspect they would have, given the opportunity. How would the Americans and British react to such developments? I suspect a much stiffer fight in Africa would have accelerated deployment of Allied heavy and super heavy tanks along with better guns and ammunition.

Modelers have barely touched the design space of possible WWII weapon systems but basic principles govern the process: Battlefield requirements always drive the acquisition process. Evolution tends to trump revolution in vehicle development. Bigger, faster, and deadlier are better, but science and technology impose limits.

As for the marketability of such things--humans love good stories, exotic machines, things that move quickly, and big explosions. This subject covers all the bases.

-Doug
SteveReid
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Posted: Monday, March 30, 2009 - 03:02 PM UTC
Hey Geraint-
interesting question & an especially thoughtful answer by Doug.

I just built a "what if" and I used Doug's approach- take something on the drawing board (an E-25) and use that hull as the basis of a special purpose vehicle.

After reading this the first place I checked out was the "What-If" campaign sign up list.
Have you seen this:

http://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Campaigns&file=index&req=showcontent&id=318

Steve
bizzychicken
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Posted: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 - 10:19 AM UTC
Doug, thanks for the very thought provoking responce. Desert storm 1946, Large tank battles for the oil of the middle east. Fast moving small raiding troop engagements in Africa for its rich resourses? Got me really thinking. This is a great subject, the whole "what if" thing. Or like you said just a limited extension to the war and maybe more anti aircraft weapon platforms for the Germans, like the Flakpanzer Panther with 55 mm Flakzwilling Gerat 58 or the Flak Panther 88mm klak 41. The Allieds fast tracking the Cent and ISIII The good thing with this "What If" modelling, as long as you put a little history plaquard/note with the model, it becomes real. Steve i've seen the what if campain, lots of intreast. It does look like a up and coming modelling trend. Lets hope? I think Trumpeter sold alot of they're E series, the Blast model crews looked Great. I for one think/hope it could become a modelling gold mine, I'm in. Thanks Geraint
bizzychicken
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 08:53 AM UTC
Guys Have you checked out the Sherman M4A3 with 100mm gun? Its Great to see some more Allied "What Ifs" One huge Sherman, those KT crews would have thought twice! How many more modellers are into the whole 46 thing. Thanks Geraint
grayghost666
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 07:11 PM UTC
hello Geraint,
it looks like you have enough interest it your campaign for you to submit it to MarkM for approval.
i for one would like to do this campaign,if it was at the end 2009 or the beginning of 2010.
i have too many campaigns this year to sign up for another one right now.
i will keep an eye on this thread to see when you have a start date.
cheers,
Bruce
Damraska
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Posted: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 - 11:21 PM UTC

Quoted Text

i for one would like to do this campaign,if it was at the end 2009 or the beginning of 2010.



Hi Bruce,

There is already a "What If" campaign scheduled to start on June 1, 2009.

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Campaigns&file=index&req=showcontent&id=318

-Doug
bizzychicken
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Posted: Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 12:07 AM UTC
Sorry , but this is not a start for a campaign just wanted to know how modellers thought about the whole "What If" thing. There is already a campaign starting for this idea. Please join that one, I have. I'm intrested in knowing modellers thoughts and idea's about 1946 and onwards,or like you have mentioned 2010 or a Twilight 2000 type of enviroment for modern stuff. Like what as been already said above, with small or large changes in history this area of modelling could I hope be a new trend in modelling. Its one of thoses area's that has only been touched on lightly, but there seems to be quite an intreast. Sorry for any confusion. Cheers Geraint
grayghost666
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Posted: Thursday, April 02, 2009 - 02:31 PM UTC
hello all,
@Doug,
i knew about that campaign and might even have signed up for it.i do not remember.
thanks for the link,i need to see if i did sign up.
@Geraint,
if you are not interested in do a campaign along the lines you have outlaid,i would like to try to make a campaign about it.if that is OK with you?
this idea has alot of interesting ways to be done as a campaign,the end date would be fun to try to figure out.do you end at 1946 or say 1948?what would the allies and the axis have made if the war continued pass 1945? what if the atomic bomb was a fizzle?or a guerrilla war in Germany vs the allies?the possibilities are endless.
thanks for opening up this area for me.
cheers,
Bruce
bizzychicken
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Posted: Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 02:29 AM UTC
Bruce carry on, my pleasure. Its a great area for modelling. I love making real models, finding referance material, getting the right tac No's even if I'm lucky the names of the crew etc. Finding all this info on a vehical from WWII is as much fun for me as building it. I love to try and find out its unit were it was fighting, the correct camo etc. The great thing about this "What if" modelling is you make your own history for the vehical. You can just let your imagination run wild, its a bit of fun. The great thing is you come to the same place with a "what if" as a real vehical... A creditable model. There does seem to be alot of intrest in this whole area. I hope the manufactures get involved, in the same breath, most of these what if vehical have all ready been made as kits, we as modellers just need to tweek them to fit into a specific scenario that we've created. Cheers Geraint
RSingleton
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Posted: Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 11:07 AM UTC
Here's an easy solution for everything, it's a video game called Turning Point: Fall of Liberty

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_Point:_Fall_of_Liberty

I know, It's a game, but it was cool to play. Except for the Statue of Liberty blowing up
There were a lot of cool vehicles in there too. Personally, if they had taken Russia, Imagine seeing a Ratte Landkruzer! That would be cool to see in any scale.

Rich
John_O
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Oost-Vlaanderen, Belgium
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Posted: Sunday, April 05, 2009 - 08:28 PM UTC
I have to come back to what I previously said: the Trumpeter E-100 is NOT the most accurate one if you check the Panzer Tracts drawing, the Dragon one IS. I had quickly checked the sides and there the Dragon one has some major issues with the locations of the attachment point for the side skirts. These are all in the wrong position. Furthermore it misses the strip with the holes on the side of the front bow. The hatches of driver and radio operator are completely wrong, but otherwise, say dimensionwise the Dragon E-100 matches the drawing. The Trumpeter one is too long and all elements on the engine decks are too big. Furthermore the elements on the rear plate (which is too high) are located too low.

So, there you have it, a quick lowdown on both models. I'm opting for the Dragon one now for my What if project.

John
bizzychicken
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Posted: Monday, April 06, 2009 - 05:31 AM UTC
John Looking Forward to seeing your E100.Sounds like you have done alot of research on it. I'm looking forward to the What if campaign see you therewith my Panther F SPG
John_O
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Oost-Vlaanderen, Belgium
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Posted: Friday, April 10, 2009 - 09:20 PM UTC
Actually, before I had a quick look at things, but last night I started measuring up the PanzerTracts drawing. There's still some more issues with the Dragon kit, but the more I research the more obvious it becomes the Dragon kit is far more correct than the Trumpeter one.
The issues I will try to correct with scratchbuilding (yes, I'm gonna try it) are with the plate with the ventilator, the diametre of the ventilator etc. Once the What If campaign gets going I will try to keep a log of all my findings and ideas...

Cheerio,

John
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