_GOTOBOTTOM
History Club
Military history and past events only. Rants or inflamitory comments will be removed.
Hosted by Frank Amato
Most Decisive Victory
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 01:00 AM UTC
We kicked around the defeat topic, let's switch gears and have folks note what they believe is the most decisive victory in military history. Big area, but I'll bet the responses will cause us all to ponder. I put my vote in for the invasion of France. The more I read about it and appreciate the tremendous effort from the strategic to the tactical level that went into this magnificent victory the more impressed I am with it. I'm waiting to hear your comments.
thanks
DJ
PS--Bring back the Current Forum.
m1garand
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Member Since: February 08, 2002
entire network: 1,248 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 02:38 AM UTC
How about the battle of Leuctra.

Sparta had lost about 500 men during the battle, while another 500 were killed during the retreat to their camp. Thebes only lost 300 men. And disproved the "invincibility" of the Spartans.


Quoted Text

The results of the battle.

With the destruction of the Spartan power at the battle of Leuctra the decade of Theban hegemony had begun. Leuctra was a defeat for Sparta, but it was not this military defeat which resulted in the end of Sparta. Thebes undertook several offensive actions in the Peloponese during its leadership of Hellas. This resulted in the founding of an Arcadian League under the leadership of the new found city of Megalopolis. Most important however was that Thebes refounded Messenia as an independent state in 369 after many years of helotage. Sparta sank to second-class among the Greek Poleis, and this allowed Thebes and Athens to pursue their rivalry in the vacuum created by the sudden disappearance of Sparta.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 03:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

How about the battle of Leuctra.

Sparta had lost about 500 men during the battle, while another 500 were killed during the retreat to their camp. Thebes only lost 300 men. And disproved the "invincibility" of the Spartans.


Quoted Text

The results of the battle.

With the destruction of the Spartan power at the battle of Leuctra the decade of Theban hegemony had begun. Leuctra was a defeat for Sparta, but it was not this military defeat which resulted in the end of Sparta. Thebes undertook several offensive actions in the Peloponese during its leadership of Hellas. This resulted in the founding of an Arcadian League under the leadership of the new found city of Megalopolis. Most important however was that Thebes refounded Messenia as an independent state in 369 after many years of helotage. Sparta sank to second-class among the Greek Poleis, and this allowed Thebes and Athens to pursue their rivalry in the vacuum created by the sudden disappearance of Sparta.



Good call! Great to see you back here again.
DJ
PS Bring back the Current Forum
chip250
Visit this Community
Wisconsin, United States
Member Since: September 01, 2002
entire network: 1,864 Posts
KitMaker Network: 606 Posts
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 09:20 AM UTC
Russia-Stalingrad.

Me- sophomore year of HS, junior next year.

~Chip
:-)
War_Machine
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Member Since: February 11, 2003
entire network: 702 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 01:36 PM UTC
Few battles were as decisive or had as much long-term effect on history as the Battle of Tsushima in 1905 in which the Japanese Fleet utterly smashed the mighty Russian Baltic Fleet. The Russians, despite their repeated setbacks, believed themselves to be superior militarily to the Japanese and decided to prove it by sending their best fleet halfway around the world to crush their enemy. Instead, a combination of arrogance, poor planning, and a cunning foe in Admiral Togo resulted in a tremendously one-sided defeat. The Russians lost 36 of 45 ships, over 5,000 killed, and over 6,000 captured. The Japanese only lost 3 destroyers or torpedo boats and around 700 casualties. After the battle, the Russian Tsar agreed to open peace talks and eventuallly ceded their possessions in China to the Japanese. The Japanese put the traditional European powers on notice that the once backward nations of Asia, especially the Japanese, would be a force to be reconned with in the coming century. It also solidified the foundation for the Japanese belief that they cold not be defeated at sea. This would eventually lead them into direct conflict with the United States with ultimately disastrous results.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 11:48 PM UTC
There are certainly some thought provokers. Interesting point abut the Russo-Japanese War of 1903-04. Stalingrad certainly ranks among the most difficult of victories. Certainly a disaster for the Germans. I often wonder how they held on from that defeat in 1942 until 1945.
DJ
warlock0322
Visit this Community
North Carolina, United States
Member Since: January 13, 2003
entire network: 1,036 Posts
KitMaker Network: 152 Posts
Posted: Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 03:26 PM UTC
How about General Washington's defeat of the Prussians at Trenton. After crossing the Delaware.. Just a thought though..
blaster76
Visit this Community
Texas, United States
Member Since: September 15, 2002
entire network: 8,985 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,270 Posts
Posted: Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 07:22 PM UTC
Nelson at Trafalgar. It ended Napoleon's threat at sea, established Britain as the title holder to world superpower
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Saturday, June 14, 2003 - 11:40 PM UTC
Trafalgar---good old Pax Brittanica. I see that we received a response citing the American Revolution. I wonder if anyone can name one from the Korean War 1950-53. I ask because there are an estimated 25,000 protestors asking us to leave the country. What do you think?

Thanks
DJ

PS Bring back the Current Forum.
War_Machine
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Member Since: February 11, 2003
entire network: 702 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 02:27 PM UTC
Three decisive US victories in Korea that come to mind are the Inchon invasion, the Battles of the tunnel and Chipyong-ni (sp?), and the bowling alley during the defense of the Pusan Perimeter.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2003 - 11:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Three decisive US victories in Korea that come to mind are the Inchon invasion, the Battles of the tunnel and Chipyong-ni (sp?), and the bowling alley during the defense of the Pusan Perimeter.


I am familiar all except "battle of the tunnel." What and where is that one?
thanks
DJ
War_Machine
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Member Since: February 11, 2003
entire network: 702 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Monday, June 16, 2003 - 11:18 AM UTC
The tunnel was right before the battle of Chipyong-ni. I'd have to check my references to be sure, but I think that they happened within days of each other and in the same general vacinity. I've seen some sources refer to them as one battle, while others separate them.
chip250
Visit this Community
Wisconsin, United States
Member Since: September 01, 2002
entire network: 1,864 Posts
KitMaker Network: 606 Posts
Posted: Monday, June 16, 2003 - 02:30 PM UTC
I forgot to write about Kursk!!

~Chip
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Monday, June 16, 2003 - 11:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I forgot to write about Kursk!!

~Chip


I am always interested in discovering why people cite Kursk as decisive. Why did you bring that to our attention?
thanks
DJ
GSPatton
Visit this Community
California, United States
Member Since: September 04, 2002
entire network: 1,411 Posts
KitMaker Network: 785 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 08:28 AM UTC
Most Decisive Victory -
How about Normandy?
The Battle of the Bulge? Not the German attack but the American counterattack and devistation of the attackers?
The Invasion and Battle for Saipan? As a result of the bloody fighting, loss of men and kamikazi attacks was one of the factors used in deciding to drop the A-Bomb.

Gettysburg. Where RE Lee's invasion of the North was halted and never again would the Confederates mount an offensive in the North. But as a result of Gettysburg the North invaded the South with devistating effect.

I personally do not feel any one victory can be defined as most decisive. Many battles were important some may have contributed to ending a war but one battle does not a war make.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 09:11 AM UTC
Good point. If you had cited Kursk I would have asked the same question. "Why is Kursk decisive?"
chip250
Visit this Community
Wisconsin, United States
Member Since: September 01, 2002
entire network: 1,864 Posts
KitMaker Network: 606 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 10:43 AM UTC
First of all, Don't ask me questions like that! It is proven that I am the most intelligant person on Earth! HA HA HA, No. Anyway why did I pick Kursk, well, It was a major armor battle between the Germans and Russians. Although the Germans were equipped with state of the art equipment, they still got their assezes kicked. I guess I picked it because it was a major battle that led to the Battle of Berlin (on the ground).

~Chip (:-)
War_Machine
Visit this Community
Washington, United States
Member Since: February 11, 2003
entire network: 702 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 02:34 PM UTC
Actually, the Germans inflicted heavier casualties on the Russians than they suffered at Kursk. It's just that the Russians were more willing to throw away their men's lives and Hitler was spooked by the Allied invasion of Sicily and called off the attack as Russian armor reserves were about to hit bottom. If anything, Kursk was a stalemate with long lasting repercussions.
Oberst
Visit this Community
Ontario, Canada
Member Since: June 26, 2002
entire network: 851 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 02:50 PM UTC

Quoted Text

First of all, Don't ask me questions like that! It is proven that I am the most intelligant person on Earth! HA HA HA, No. Anyway why did I pick Kursk, well, It was a major armor battle between the Germans and Russians. Although the Germans were equipped with state of the art equipment, they still got their assezes kicked. I guess I picked it because it was a major battle that led to the Battle of Berlin (on the ground).

~Chip (:-)


Well chip, the German "state of the art" armour, the Panther, was still having the bugs worked out of it. As to the Germans getting thier asses kicked, they did not in terms of losses. The losses on both sides were fairly equal, the only reason why the battle was declared a victory was that the Russians could more easily replace thier losses.

Andrew

chip250
Visit this Community
Wisconsin, United States
Member Since: September 01, 2002
entire network: 1,864 Posts
KitMaker Network: 606 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 05:38 PM UTC
Yeah you guys are right! Its just that it is my favorite battle because I took Russian class last year, and learned how to speak Russian. It is an interesting battle. In fact forget what I said, I just think it was a pretty cool battle.

~Chip :-)
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 11:37 PM UTC
Interesting series on the Battle of Kursk. Decisive "conclusive, unquestionable, unmistakable." Kursk is a well known engagement but I always treat it as a less than decisive meeting for either side. In contrast, the Battle of Midway is decisive in that it turns back the Japanese, causes great loss of trained personnel and huge shipping losses. Is Custer's defeat at the Little Big Horn decisive?
GSPatton
Visit this Community
California, United States
Member Since: September 04, 2002
entire network: 1,411 Posts
KitMaker Network: 785 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 04:02 AM UTC
The defeat of Custer at Little Bighorn ushered in a period of all out war against the Indians culminating at Wounded Knee. Custer was a media hero from his boy generalship in the Civil War to his "campaigns" against the hostiles. His death galvanized this nation to destroy the indians rather than contain them.

As with most "decisive" battles the battle itself is not and ends all but rather the ramifications resulting after the battle have greater and deeper effect on history.
210cav
Visit this Community
Virginia, United States
Member Since: February 05, 2002
entire network: 6,149 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,551 Posts
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 04:33 AM UTC
"As with most "decisive" battles the battle itself is not and ends all but rather the ramifications resulting after the battle have greater and deeper effect on history. "

I like that concept. Now that I think on it, Kursk fits the bill of battles with "consequences." During and after the battle, Hitlar is concerned/distracted by everything from the Allies hitting Sicily then Italy, the performance of the Panther (a truly great tank) while the Russians gain momentum for their characteristic defensive and offensive forms of warfare. Do the Germans ever launch another major offense in the East after Kursk?
thanks
DJ
Folgore
Visit this Community
Canada
Member Since: May 31, 2002
entire network: 1,109 Posts
KitMaker Network: 0 Posts
Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 05:27 PM UTC
I suppose Omdurman would be similar. Didn't the British basically just mow down hordes of Mahdis using machine guns?

Nic
 _GOTOTOP