I noticed armorama kind of has been bombarded today with model posts that link to an ebay seller named: ACE loen
Both screen names have models posted in armorama, msw and aeroscale. Although the posters use different names on opposite sides of the world, they link to the same website and ebay seller id. Both posters are new members with low post counts. It may be nothing but sure seems strange to me.
Here is one post from "Yu Lin aka Luftwaffelin " in China. 27 total posts. ACE loen link is in his reply farther down the page.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/120512&page=1
Here is one post from Jeff Li aka Squall 802" of Canada. Number of posts total 20. ACE loen link is in the original post.
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/120612&page=1
There is also some inconsisencies in his posts as pointed out by our beloved "Desk Jockey" here:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/forums/120609&page=1
Modeling in General
General discussions about modeling topics.
General discussions about modeling topics.
Hosted by Jim Starkweather
I'm confused- Jeff Li and Yu Lin the same?
sgtsauer
#065
Member Since: March 30, 2002
entire network: 2,605 Posts
KitMaker Network: 650 Posts
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 01:20 PM UTC
DeskJockey
Member Since: July 17, 2006
entire network: 1,558 Posts
KitMaker Network: 376 Posts
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 02:57 PM UTC
Hmmmm... it does look rather odd, Brent. Then again, seeing how many models the ACE shop has available for sale, it may be that both of these modelers work for ACE.
DeskJockey
Member Since: July 17, 2006
entire network: 1,558 Posts
KitMaker Network: 376 Posts
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 03:04 PM UTC
I just noticed something else--ACE seems to recycle the same pictures for its auctions. Check out this completed auction (with positive feedback), and the second link, an active auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200217225413
http://cgi.ebay.com/Built-1-35-USMC-M1A1HA-Abrams-Iraq-2003_W0QQitemZ200228041309QQihZ010QQcategoryZ2588QQcmdZViewItem
Given the positive feedback, I don't think ACE is committing outright fraud, but how likely are buyers to get exactly what is in the pictures? At a minimum, they are leaving themselves open to accusations of misrepresentation.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200217225413
http://cgi.ebay.com/Built-1-35-USMC-M1A1HA-Abrams-Iraq-2003_W0QQitemZ200228041309QQihZ010QQcategoryZ2588QQcmdZViewItem
Given the positive feedback, I don't think ACE is committing outright fraud, but how likely are buyers to get exactly what is in the pictures? At a minimum, they are leaving themselves open to accusations of misrepresentation.
sgtsauer
#065
Member Since: March 30, 2002
entire network: 2,605 Posts
KitMaker Network: 650 Posts
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 03:25 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I just noticed something else--ACE seems to recycle the same pictures for its auctions. Check out this completed auction (with positive feedback), and the second link, an active auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200217225413
http://cgi.ebay.com/Built-1-35-USMC-M1A1HA-Abrams-Iraq-2003_W0QQitemZ200228041309QQihZ010QQcategoryZ2588QQcmdZViewItem
Given the positive feedback, I don't think ACE is committing outright fraud, but how likely are buyers to get exactly what is in the pictures? At a minimum, they are leaving themselves open to accusations of misrepresentation.
Maybe I'm being to sensitive but I feel like we (the armorama family) are being "ambushed" and "deceived" in a way. This guy (or guys) may be legit but it just seems strange to me. I'll go back into my hole and let this take whatever course it takes.
c5flies
Member Since: October 21, 2007
entire network: 3,684 Posts
KitMaker Network: 411 Posts
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 03:39 PM UTC
I agree with you, Brent. Whenever I see these 'production/factory" style builds it just seems to cheapen (for lack of a better word) our hobby. If I notice a whole slew of posts of different models from the same author I don't even give the decency of a click. As much as I appreciate a well built and finished model, I'd rather view a so-so model that someone has put some blood, sweat, tears and love into. Hopefully those posts will go the wayside and disappear. Just my 2 pennies.
Bratushka
Member Since: May 09, 2008
entire network: 1,019 Posts
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Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 04:17 PM UTC
It does seem kinda cheesy if they are working for the ACE company and are using this site as a promotional sales tool. But, maybe ACE buys models from individual (contract?) builders and acts as a clearing house. Many less than ethical business practices come out of China. For instance, another past-time of mine is PC gaming. While I don't do much on line gaming, there is a not-so-legit business called gold farming that comes largely out of China that make enormous profits from the on line gaming community. Companies hire workers for very little pay in near sweatshop type conditions to play on line games in which they gather by hook or crook various objects within the game that give players enhanced powers and abilities. Many are very time consuming and activity intensive to acquire. For those wanting instant gratification and unwilling to put in the work these enhancements are available for purchase and sold for some serious cash. Once the payment is completed the transfer is made between the company avatar and the buyer avatars in the game. The hosting gaming companies fight it, but every time they stop one way of doing it another way opens up. Magazines that cater to gamers used to carry ads for these companies but due to player outrage many no longer accept such ads. This pre built model stuff may be another similar high profit low investment thing.
Kelley
Member Since: November 21, 2002
entire network: 1,966 Posts
KitMaker Network: 297 Posts
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 04:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Maybe I'm being to sensitive but I feel like we (the armorama family) are being "ambushed" and "deceived" in a way. This guy (or guys) may be legit but it just seems strange to me. I'll go back into my hole and let this take whatever course it takes.
I agree with you Brent, these posts from various "different users" which all have links to the same site may be above board, but they just don't sit right.
Mike
markm
Member Since: September 11, 2005
entire network: 1,757 Posts
KitMaker Network: 590 Posts
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 04:46 PM UTC
So far it does not look like they have crossed any lines. Any member can post builds, list evilbay items, and sell them. Only time will tell how this one plays out.
HeavyArty
Member Since: May 16, 2002
entire network: 17,694 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,968 Posts
Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 05:45 PM UTC
Looks like sales pitches to me too. These model factories cheapen the hobby, esp. when the models are mediocre and full of inaccuracies. I don't like it and feel Armorama is being taken advantage of. 
CMOT
Editor-in-Chief
Member Since: May 14, 2006
entire network: 10,954 Posts
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Posted: Sunday, June 15, 2008 - 06:00 PM UTC
I agree with a lot of what has been said here, however nothing they have done is strictly against the rules. Easiest way to stop this type of activity is to make it none productive, just block that user so you don’t see his posts, he wont get replies to his posts and they will be gone of the page in no time. This action will make their efforts pointless.
You could say why doesn’t the KitMaker Network ban or block these people? Well as I have said it is not strictly against the rules, and it could end up with us blocking genuine members work in error. Would you really want that to happen?
You could say why doesn’t the KitMaker Network ban or block these people? Well as I have said it is not strictly against the rules, and it could end up with us blocking genuine members work in error. Would you really want that to happen?
jimbrae
Member Since: April 23, 2003
entire network: 12,927 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,060 Posts
Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 05:30 AM UTC
Darren's essentially correct - it isn't against the 'Rules' but, IMO, it's against the 'Spirit' of the rules... 
Another issue about this, is that while I personally dislike this kind of 'hook' each post DOES have clear links to the buyer's e-bay page. If people choose NOT to see it, then personally, that's up to them....
IMO, praising these models (as many have done) is a bit like praising a car advert - and then waiting for the president of GM to respond. Essentially frustrating and pointless..
Another issue about this, is that while I personally dislike this kind of 'hook' each post DOES have clear links to the buyer's e-bay page. If people choose NOT to see it, then personally, that's up to them....
IMO, praising these models (as many have done) is a bit like praising a car advert - and then waiting for the president of GM to respond. Essentially frustrating and pointless..
Bratushka
Member Since: May 09, 2008
entire network: 1,019 Posts
KitMaker Network: 332 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 09:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Darren's essentially correct - it isn't against the 'Rules' but, IMO, it's against the 'Spirit' of the rules...
Another issue about this, is that while I personally dislike this kind of 'hook' each post DOES have clear links to the buyer's e-bay page. If people choose NOT to see it, then personally, that's up to them....
IMO, praising these models (as many have done) is a bit like praising a car advert - and then waiting for the president of GM to respond. Essentially frustrating and pointless..
It isn't always immediately apparent from their posts that they are anything other than individual hobbyist model builders. Maybe something could be added to the user agreement when you sign up here that if you are a professional builder working for a company that sells built kits or you display your builds for the purpose of selling them you'd be required to use a special avatar identifying you as someone with a retail interest. It could even include some kind of symbol or charater after the member's name. That way forum members could either ignore the posts or if someone is looking for a professional contract builder it would be easy to find one.
Or maybe request threads promoting builds that are for sale be listed in the For Sale section of the forum.
jimbrae
Member Since: April 23, 2003
entire network: 12,927 Posts
KitMaker Network: 2,060 Posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 11:19 PM UTC
Jim, thanks for your comments - i'll be passing them on 
Just to finally clear this up, both the posters have removed any links to their e-bay store. The situation has also been resolved satisfactorily with helpful communication from both of them.
As with many things it still remains a 'grey' area for future consideration. Although they are selling these models, it's a lot better seeing these than those irritating spams for sports shoes!
Just to finally clear this up, both the posters have removed any links to their e-bay store. The situation has also been resolved satisfactorily with helpful communication from both of them.
As with many things it still remains a 'grey' area for future consideration. Although they are selling these models, it's a lot better seeing these than those irritating spams for sports shoes!
alanmac
Member Since: February 25, 2007
entire network: 3,033 Posts
KitMaker Network: 55 Posts
Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 07:43 AM UTC
Whilst I don't wish to comment on the ins and outs of these particular posts refered to above there are other members who show their models here and also sell them.
If my memory serves me correctly Pzcreations (Tim Sloan) is one, a nice guy and great contributor to this site. From what I gather many other modellers advertise they are prepared to do commission work, again if my memory serves me correctly, even staff members from armorama so I'd see it as a bit hypocritical to block these people entries.
They certainly don't promote their business, if there is one, in an overt way on the images themselves.
Okay you may feel unhappy about the thought of models being produced on some production line but I can't really see why you'd have an issue with that either, other than if poorly paid but talented people where being exploited. I believe Dragon certainly, as well as Tamiya sell "ready made models".
In some ways it comes across as sour grapes, as maybe these models are actually better looking than yours, but anybody willing to pay the money can own them and display them. They might even be shallow enough to say they made them, but that's hardly the fault of the makers and sellers is it?
Alan
If my memory serves me correctly Pzcreations (Tim Sloan) is one, a nice guy and great contributor to this site. From what I gather many other modellers advertise they are prepared to do commission work, again if my memory serves me correctly, even staff members from armorama so I'd see it as a bit hypocritical to block these people entries.
They certainly don't promote their business, if there is one, in an overt way on the images themselves.
Okay you may feel unhappy about the thought of models being produced on some production line but I can't really see why you'd have an issue with that either, other than if poorly paid but talented people where being exploited. I believe Dragon certainly, as well as Tamiya sell "ready made models".
In some ways it comes across as sour grapes, as maybe these models are actually better looking than yours, but anybody willing to pay the money can own them and display them. They might even be shallow enough to say they made them, but that's hardly the fault of the makers and sellers is it?
Alan
Plasticbattle
#003
Member Since: May 14, 2002
entire network: 9,763 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,351 Posts
Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 10:34 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Whilst I don't wish to comment on the ins and outs of these particular posts refered to above there are other members who show their models here and also sell them.
If my memory serves me correctly Pzcreations (Tim Sloan) is one, a nice guy and great contributor to this site. From what I gather many other modellers advertise they are prepared to do commission work, again if my memory serves me correctly, even staff members from armorama so I'd see it as a bit hypocritical to block these people entries.
They certainly don't promote their business, if there is one, in an overt way on the images themselves.
Okay you may feel unhappy about the thought of models being produced on some production line but I can't really see why you'd have an issue with that either, other than if poorly paid but talented people where being exploited. I believe Dragon certainly, as well as Tamiya sell "ready made models".
In some ways it comes across as sour grapes, as maybe these models are actually better looking than yours, but anybody willing to pay the money can own them and display them. They might even be shallow enough to say they made them, but that's hardly the fault of the makers and sellers is it?
Alan
Hi Alan. Its like your fingers typed exactly what I was thinking.
I saw the threads earlier, and checked out their listings on Ebay, and knew exactly what idea was behind them. I looked closer at a few models, that interested me. I did this, pretty much in the same way I look through anybodies models that are shown on the site.
I see myself as a modeller, and if theres a model I like .... I`ll buy and build it. I, personally, would never be tempted to buy somebody else´s work. I do enjoy looking at models though ... a big part of why I spend time here.
I wouldn´t compare Tim to these guys though, as he was a member who posted and answered questions on his builds. What he chooses to with them afterwards, is his choice. Same could be said for Miloslav Hraban (Real Models) who contributed a lot, and maybe had another agenda, but was a very welcome member.
I can see the point of view from Brent´s original post though, and Jim H´s idea is a good one, if needed.
Then there´s always the point of view, that some people night actually want to see these models and consider buying them! Maybe Armorama is not the best avenue for selling completed models, but there may be someone.
Bratushka
Member Since: May 09, 2008
entire network: 1,019 Posts
KitMaker Network: 332 Posts
Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 10:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Whilst I don't wish to comment on the ins and outs of these particular posts refered to above there are other members who show their models here and also sell them.
If my memory serves me correctly Pzcreations (Tim Sloan) is one, a nice guy and great contributor to this site. From what I gather many other modellers advertise they are prepared to do commission work, again if my memory serves me correctly, even staff members from armorama so I'd see it as a bit hypocritical to block these people entries.
They certainly don't promote their business, if there is one, in an overt way on the images themselves.
Okay you may feel unhappy about the thought of models being produced on some production line but I can't really see why you'd have an issue with that either, other than if poorly paid but talented people where being exploited. I believe Dragon certainly, as well as Tamiya sell "ready made models".
In some ways it comes across as sour grapes, as maybe these models are actually better looking than yours, but anybody willing to pay the money can own them and display them. They might even be shallow enough to say they made them, but that's hardly the fault of the makers and sellers is it?
Alan
i can't answer for anybody but me, but it certainly isn't jealousy. i KNOW i am not as good at the finishing process or researching out every accuracy as most of the builders that show their art here are. it gives me a goal to work for and material to study that helps me get better. i certainly have no problem with anybody making money from their hobby. (the motorcycle shop i ran for some 10 years was an offshoot of a hobby, well more an obsession, but i began charging for what i used to do for free) it's something that's quite cumbersome to put into words, but if there is a group that is in the business of selling built models, let them be up front about it. if the people that are part of the business present themselves as individuals to show their work and get you interested in what they do when they are really fronting for a business it seems wrong. the earlier post of mine about the gold farming businesses out of China showed that they are sweat shops with long hours, low wages, and intense pressure to produce for the owners. it's my belief that the prefinished model business would be ideal for a similar operation. it may not be that way, but the similarities with what i see here and what i know of the other are pretty great.
let me put it this way- say i become your neighbor and after striking up the beginnings of a friendship with you i start pointing out things about your house that could improve it or things done incorrectly that need attention. later on you find i own a home remodelling company. would you not have a momentary pause and wonder if i'm pursuing a friendship with you or grooming you for a business contact? wouldn't the ethical thing for me to have done is to tell you up front what i do? and/or tell you if you're interested in hiring me i would be happy to help you out or tell you why i know about these things and advise you should look into them whether you come to me or not?
and lets not forget our friends at Swapey!!
alanmac
Member Since: February 25, 2007
entire network: 3,033 Posts
KitMaker Network: 55 Posts
Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2008 - 11:27 PM UTC
Hi Jim
I take your points, and I for one would never condone or support any business I knew that exploited people but this has the beginning of a witch hunt in the makings if we are not careful.I can't see how the viewer of these models is being deceived in any big way other than possibly the motive behind displaying it, but then again by seeing the links to the ebay sales you'd be pretty dense not to see that this person or persons not only makes models but has some sort of active business selling them and what's the harm in it.
I could understand if they were entering competitions, or worse somebody was buying them, putting them forward as their own builds to win prizes, but as I said before that's hardly the fault of the kit builder or seller.I think your idea of some form of ID for people signing up to the forum that have a business interest is a good one.
It is pretty clear that people like Adam Wilder, Mig Jimenez are part of Mig Productions but does that in some way compromise them in showing their work here, or that it in anyway cheats, compromises the viewer of the images they are looking at. They are good or bad models, of interest or not. I've not paid a fee to view them or in doing so I'm obliged to buy their products in anyway.
I'd like to add that anybody's name I've quoted is purely to illustrate my point and not to point to them specifically, or single them out for criticism.
How far do we take this or indeed anything in life before paranoia takes over.
It may not be my neighbour who has a building business but a relative he has that runs one so a direct link may not be apparent. In any case as an individual I surely have to accept responsibility to make my own decisions. If I choose to good ahead with work recommended by my neighbour without first checking his statements and obtaining alternative quotes then I'm at fault. I can after all take the statements of advice and not do anything about it can I not.
It's the same with these models. I can admire them comment on them but am under no obligation to buy them by looking at them.
Another important consideration to note that by posting these images on Armorama they do leave themselves open to comment and criticism of their kits which is a good thing is it not. As this is an "open" site anybody can read the remarks. So if you were considering buying one of these and found it not to be an accurate representation you'd may feel cheated. As least by being shown here and reading the comments the buyer has a better insight into what they are buying.
Best regards
Alan
I take your points, and I for one would never condone or support any business I knew that exploited people but this has the beginning of a witch hunt in the makings if we are not careful.I can't see how the viewer of these models is being deceived in any big way other than possibly the motive behind displaying it, but then again by seeing the links to the ebay sales you'd be pretty dense not to see that this person or persons not only makes models but has some sort of active business selling them and what's the harm in it.
I could understand if they were entering competitions, or worse somebody was buying them, putting them forward as their own builds to win prizes, but as I said before that's hardly the fault of the kit builder or seller.I think your idea of some form of ID for people signing up to the forum that have a business interest is a good one.
It is pretty clear that people like Adam Wilder, Mig Jimenez are part of Mig Productions but does that in some way compromise them in showing their work here, or that it in anyway cheats, compromises the viewer of the images they are looking at. They are good or bad models, of interest or not. I've not paid a fee to view them or in doing so I'm obliged to buy their products in anyway.
I'd like to add that anybody's name I've quoted is purely to illustrate my point and not to point to them specifically, or single them out for criticism.
How far do we take this or indeed anything in life before paranoia takes over.
It may not be my neighbour who has a building business but a relative he has that runs one so a direct link may not be apparent. In any case as an individual I surely have to accept responsibility to make my own decisions. If I choose to good ahead with work recommended by my neighbour without first checking his statements and obtaining alternative quotes then I'm at fault. I can after all take the statements of advice and not do anything about it can I not.
It's the same with these models. I can admire them comment on them but am under no obligation to buy them by looking at them.
Another important consideration to note that by posting these images on Armorama they do leave themselves open to comment and criticism of their kits which is a good thing is it not. As this is an "open" site anybody can read the remarks. So if you were considering buying one of these and found it not to be an accurate representation you'd may feel cheated. As least by being shown here and reading the comments the buyer has a better insight into what they are buying.
Best regards
Alan
Henk
Member Since: August 07, 2004
entire network: 6,391 Posts
KitMaker Network: 1,600 Posts
Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 - 01:36 AM UTC
Let me give you my take on this situation.
When these posts first appeared, I was one of the first to voice my concerns, in the 'back room'. My misgivings were twofold:
First off, these post were obviously meant to advertise an (ebay) business. The large number of them, coupled with the multiple accounts, and a quick look at the ebay site, meant that this was not an individual selling some of his models, but a business. For starters, these should have been posted in the 'Buy, Sell, Swap..' forum, but even that is for 'private individuals'. As this concerns an obvious business, they should really pay for an advert. Other companies do so. If we condone one business to advertise for free in the forums, what will stop the other advertisers to do the same? I don't need to explain what that loss of revenue would mean to the site... (And just to make it clear, I, and any of the other Editors and Volunteers, are not paid, all the advertisement revenue pays to keep Armorama on line. )
The pictures shown are very nice, but not neccessarily the model that you will get when you buy one. The same picture is used in multiple auctions. Some auctions also list more than one as 'available'. Whilst this is not necessarily against any rules, it is another indication that this is not just an individual selling his own models.
I do not have a problem with anybody selling models on ebay, and even posting (occasional) links to the auctions. Again, that is what the 'Buy, Sell..' forum is for. I do sometimes sell models on ebay myself, and I do commissions, but to suggest that I would want to use my position here, to stop others from promoting their business here, to protect my own interests, is ludicrous. My concerns are for Armorama (and the Kitmaker Network), and it's members. It is very simple, without advertising revenue, this site would not be what it is today. To let a business advertise in this way, will not encourage other companies to support us.
As for other individuals and small companies mentioned, they are active participants on Armorama, engaging in the forums, replying to comments, and happy to explain their techniques. They also post as and when they have a finished or WIP model, rather than posting 20+ post with just pictures and a link to ebay. ( I will hasten to add that I noticed that Yu Lin is now actively communicating with members in response to comments on his models, which I very much appreciate.)
As an aside, ebay as a selling platform for the individual is rapidly dying. The increase in fees, the influx of large 'shops', and various other none to kosher practices (feedback now being all but useless) have moved me away from ebay anyway.
It is not a case of sour grapes, I know that their are plenty of better modellers than me out there. But to say that you build a model that you are selling, when it's not, surely that is not just shallow, that is wrong. It's like me selling a Van Gogh, as my own work...
Just to clarify the position, this was not a potential witch hunt, nor a case of paranoia taking over. The situation was quite clear, and as such we (the staff) dealt with most of the issues behind the scenes. The responses in the forum, came forth from the post themselves; as Alan states
Henk
When these posts first appeared, I was one of the first to voice my concerns, in the 'back room'. My misgivings were twofold:
First off, these post were obviously meant to advertise an (ebay) business. The large number of them, coupled with the multiple accounts, and a quick look at the ebay site, meant that this was not an individual selling some of his models, but a business. For starters, these should have been posted in the 'Buy, Sell, Swap..' forum, but even that is for 'private individuals'. As this concerns an obvious business, they should really pay for an advert. Other companies do so. If we condone one business to advertise for free in the forums, what will stop the other advertisers to do the same? I don't need to explain what that loss of revenue would mean to the site... (And just to make it clear, I, and any of the other Editors and Volunteers, are not paid, all the advertisement revenue pays to keep Armorama on line. )
Quoted Text
I can't see how the viewer of these models is being deceived in any big way other than possibly the motive behind displaying it, but then again by seeing the links to the ebay sales you'd be pretty dense not to see that this person or persons not only makes models but has some sort of active business selling them and what's the harm in it.
The pictures shown are very nice, but not neccessarily the model that you will get when you buy one. The same picture is used in multiple auctions. Some auctions also list more than one as 'available'. Whilst this is not necessarily against any rules, it is another indication that this is not just an individual selling his own models.
Quoted Text
If my memory serves me correctly Pzcreations (Tim Sloan) is one, a nice guy and great contributor to this site. From what I gather many other modellers advertise they are prepared to do commission work, again if my memory serves me correctly, even staff members from armorama so I'd see it as a bit hypocritical to block these people entries.
I do not have a problem with anybody selling models on ebay, and even posting (occasional) links to the auctions. Again, that is what the 'Buy, Sell..' forum is for. I do sometimes sell models on ebay myself, and I do commissions, but to suggest that I would want to use my position here, to stop others from promoting their business here, to protect my own interests, is ludicrous. My concerns are for Armorama (and the Kitmaker Network), and it's members. It is very simple, without advertising revenue, this site would not be what it is today. To let a business advertise in this way, will not encourage other companies to support us.
As for other individuals and small companies mentioned, they are active participants on Armorama, engaging in the forums, replying to comments, and happy to explain their techniques. They also post as and when they have a finished or WIP model, rather than posting 20+ post with just pictures and a link to ebay. ( I will hasten to add that I noticed that Yu Lin is now actively communicating with members in response to comments on his models, which I very much appreciate.)
As an aside, ebay as a selling platform for the individual is rapidly dying. The increase in fees, the influx of large 'shops', and various other none to kosher practices (feedback now being all but useless) have moved me away from ebay anyway.
Quoted Text
In some ways it comes across as sour grapes, as maybe these models are actually better looking than yours, but anybody willing to pay the money can own them and display them. They might even be shallow enough to say they made them, but that's hardly the fault of the makers and sellers is it?
It is not a case of sour grapes, I know that their are plenty of better modellers than me out there.
But to say that you build a model that you are selling, when it's not, surely that is not just shallow, that is wrong. It's like me selling a Van Gogh, as my own work...Just to clarify the position, this was not a potential witch hunt, nor a case of paranoia taking over. The situation was quite clear, and as such we (the staff) dealt with most of the issues behind the scenes. The responses in the forum, came forth from the post themselves; as Alan states
Quoted Text
Another important consideration to note that by posting these images on Armorama they do leave themselves open to comment and criticism of their kits which is a good thing is it not. As this is an "open" site anybody can read the remarks. So if you were considering buying one of these and found it not to be an accurate representation you'd may feel cheated. As least by being shown here and reading the comments the buyer has a better insight into what they are buying.
Henk
staff_Jim
PublisherMember Since: December 15, 2001
entire network: 12,571 Posts
KitMaker Network: 4,397 Posts
Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 - 03:43 AM UTC
I am with you Alan. No harm no foul for posting pictures of models on this site/network. It's when you start openly marketing, sending PM's to members or spamming them via email that I draw the line.
Cheers,
Jim
Cheers,
Jim
alanmac
Member Since: February 25, 2007
entire network: 3,033 Posts
KitMaker Network: 55 Posts
Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 - 04:18 AM UTC
Hi Henk
Thanks for taking the time to reply. As you include parts of my post in your post I felt I should respond if only to clarify myself and to ensure no misunderstandings are taking place.
As I said in my previous posts any mention of individuals directly or otherwise was to illustrate a point in respect of this case, not to criticise or cast any aspersions upon them in any way.
I hope you did not think I was implying that Armorama staff would block these posts in favour of their own personal interests, but in fact saying that for Armorama to block these posts on the grounds the posters were also selling the models knowing that others, including staff members also did this would be hypocritical, and as such I knew this would not happen.
It is clear from what you have said and other staff members that there has been discussions between yourselves and with the people in question and it sounds like the matter has been resolved satisfactorily.
As for what happens on ebay is another matter, and as already been stated in another incident involving what appeared to some to be a Armorama member selling recasts of resin figures on ebay , ( connection never proven) this does not fall under the responsibilities of Armorama and its staff unless they were being sold directly on this site.
The other comments about paranoia and witch hunts were comments about the way things seemed to be heading, comments in posts, not how Armorama as a site was responding or dealing with this matter.
In all of this I hope you do not see my posts as criticism of Armorama or it's handling of this situation. If it has been taken as such, this is incorrect, not my intention and I apologise if these caused offence even by being misunderstood.
Alan
Edit - Jim. It seems my post crossed with yours. I was writing it as you posted. Thanks, and thanks for an excellent site.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. As you include parts of my post in your post I felt I should respond if only to clarify myself and to ensure no misunderstandings are taking place.
As I said in my previous posts any mention of individuals directly or otherwise was to illustrate a point in respect of this case, not to criticise or cast any aspersions upon them in any way.
I hope you did not think I was implying that Armorama staff would block these posts in favour of their own personal interests, but in fact saying that for Armorama to block these posts on the grounds the posters were also selling the models knowing that others, including staff members also did this would be hypocritical, and as such I knew this would not happen.
It is clear from what you have said and other staff members that there has been discussions between yourselves and with the people in question and it sounds like the matter has been resolved satisfactorily.
As for what happens on ebay is another matter, and as already been stated in another incident involving what appeared to some to be a Armorama member selling recasts of resin figures on ebay , ( connection never proven) this does not fall under the responsibilities of Armorama and its staff unless they were being sold directly on this site.
The other comments about paranoia and witch hunts were comments about the way things seemed to be heading, comments in posts, not how Armorama as a site was responding or dealing with this matter.
In all of this I hope you do not see my posts as criticism of Armorama or it's handling of this situation. If it has been taken as such, this is incorrect, not my intention and I apologise if these caused offence even by being misunderstood.
Alan
Edit - Jim. It seems my post crossed with yours. I was writing it as you posted. Thanks, and thanks for an excellent site.
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