Much as I enjoy scratchbuilding, much as I enjoy detailing there are times when I wish that I could just buy a kit, build it and paint it without spending a small fortune in after-market parts. Don't get me wrong, the overwhelming majority of after-market producers are doing an incredible job. I repeat incredible. However, I really think in a lot of cases it's the 'big boys' in the hobby that are doing us a tremendous disservice. Take for an example, the current debate that is raging around the M1A1/M1A2 series, consider me innocent if you like, but why can't the 'major' players get it right first time round? Also, the constant re-issuing (without updating), the same mould appearing from 4 different manufacturers, at of course 4 widely varying prices of course. Look at Revell (Germany) and Italeri, same kit... weird price difference. Is it also reasonable to pay premium prices for very old mouldings? Some of the Tamiya stuff (for example) seems ready to draw a pension....

All right, I know this is a debate that has been running for years, and for many of you, it's probably very boring however for me at least, i'd like to hear your opinions.....Jim


"So Much Plastic, So Little Time"

I pretty much build my Armor OOTB, but I also looks for kits that have few known flaws. I don't spend any moey on PE and will only by resin kits that provide accessories, not conversions.
Cal it simple, call it inaccurate, but it's fun.
Now my 120MM and larger figures are a different story. Those I will spend a few extra bucks for additional equipment etc (or I'll trade for it). But that's usually not a lot of money, and most of the detail parts (slings etc.) can be scratch built or purchased for a few dollars.

Nate
Wisc. USA

Altho my original intent is to build something OOB, it NEVER works out that way. No, I'm not a rivet counter, but I always seem to find something that needs to be replaced or added beyond the antenna. (I can't even do a mortar OOB!!) IMHO, PE is a nice addition to any kit as fiddley as it may be but to me, it's worth it to just 'turn it up a notch'.

im not a big fan of P E eather got a bad taste back during monograms hi-tech air craft series. i prefer OOB with a ilttle home grown stuff just to put my personal touch to it . some P E is ok such as AFVs M-88 only 3 pe parts. some pe sets are over kill. same for resin. c u later . TURRETTOAD 13 OUT.

If you are not a rivet counter, then the majority of the kits coming out these days do not need all the aftermarket goodies that are being offered. I will use some of the latest kits I have built as examples.

Trumpeteer Strv-103B. Sure it may be short lengthwise, but does it look like a Strv-103B? Yep. Does it need any extras to look like a 103B? Nope. Is it a deal at 18 bucks? Hell ya. The kit was pretty easy to put together, the detail is good, and it is very affordable.

Tamiya Marder III M. This model is a beauty. Accurate, the fit is spot-on, the detail superb. This kit is a dream. It does not need any aftermarket goodies...well, a case can be made for the tracks. Is it worth the 32 bucks I spent on it? Yes. Because of this kit, I have been buying all the new Tamiya kits. I know that they are going to be a pleasure to build.

What am I getting at? No kit is going to be 100% accurate, or satisfy every modeller out there. If you are a rivet counter, then you are bound to be disappointed. There are limitations in the plastic injection moulding process that prohibits certain details. So, you are going to have to look to PE, or resin to "perfect" your model.

I am starting to get tired of all the bashing that goes on when a model is released onto the market. "It's two mm too short", or "the tracks have a solid guide horn", etc. Or Tamiya is over-priced. I got my T-55 for 35 bucks at Greatmodels, doesn't seem to spendy to me. This is the Golden Age of modelling. New kits are coming out like wildfire. Remember back in the day when all you had was the old Tamiya kits, and Italeri blobs of plastic? We should be very thankful.

Rant over.

Stuke, I agree with you i'm not a rivet counter either but some stuff that's on the market is truly horrible... I don't like the nitpicking either, for me its the general effect, not that the turret is 3 microns too short......Jim #:-)

Jim,

I am probably just lucky, as I have not yet picked up any of the newer kits that is a complete dog. I just put the ICM Panzer II D together in about four hours (minus the indy tracks). The fit wasn't great is some parts, especially the hatches, but with a little sanding we were back in business. I bought this little bad boy for 15 bucks and love it.

Another factor that I believe leads to this explosion of aftermarket sets on every model is this intense desire by certain individuals to out-do another. I would compare it to boys and their cars. Whoever has the most goodies wins. Yes, the logic is completely illogical, but people get caught up in it all the same. My tank has Aber PE and Friul tracks. Well mine has Aber PE, Friul tracks, a Jordio barrel, etc. Pretty funny actually...boys and their toys.

You have to remember the ages of some of these kits. The Tamiya M1A1 is basically a retool of their M1 kit they first produced about 20 years ago. Even their retool M1A1 is now 12 years old.

Academy started out as a company that issued direct copies of Tamiya kits. Even the decal sheets were identical. Their M1A1 is itself a direct copy of the Tamiya kit with a couple of minor modifications made.

DML's M1A1/A2 is pretty darn accurate for a late M1A1 or an initial M1A2. Remember, when their kit came out in the early 1990s, the M1A2 had not been fielded to the force.

Trumpeter came on the scene in the late 1990s with a bunch of very poorly copied Tamiya/Academy kits. They even used exact copies of Tamiya instructions that pointed out the placement of parts that Trumpeter molded on the hull or turret. Their M1 series looks like they built a kit using the best parts of the Tamiya and DML Abrams and then made a copy of it. The one area they missed was the front turret slope, but otherwise a decent job. However, it is still a copy and the details are rather soft. It is still a decent value for the money.

So, to make a long story short, this Italeri kit has the benefit of being a new molding. The state of the art has risen in model mold making within the last 10-20 years.

I just model Italian subjects from WWII onwards. WWII subjects are, with a few exceptions (M13/40 and the 75/18 semovente std and command version) quite expensive resin kits. Up to the sixties almost everithing it's all right because they all came from US/UK. From there up to today I can only have the old Tamiya Leopard 1A1 to be built OOB, all the rest is again low quality/high price resin kits, or you need to make conversion. I agree that PE stuff is excellent, but of course the downside is the price you have to pay for them, so what I do is a lot of scratchbuilding, using the most weird materials(various foils, wires and so on) and with the cost of a PE set I can detail a couple of hundreds models. Even wanting to buy such PE sets for most of the kits they are unavailable. Anyway often there's the need to detail/modify/rebuild parts that in plastic injection models cannot be properly replicated. For long parts as fenders there's a limit of something like 1 mm in thickness that cannot be overcome, otherwise they will bend/shrink/get damaged as soon as they get out of the molds. I spoke a few times about this with one of the two Italeri's major shareholders, as well as the fact that you correctly pointed out about the very same kit re-issued by several manufacturers using the same molds. The problem is simple there, they all agree in advance on what will be the new issues and they participate often in the funding of the molds at the condition that they will re-issue the model under their brand over the time (for instance the Revell/Esci/Italeri stuff or for instance in Japan some Italeri kits are re-boxed and sold under the Tamiya brand) this is due to the fact, or al least they say so, that a new mold is very expensive and complicated, specially when an AFV is involved and that is diffcult to recover the investment. So they often issue and withdraw from the market the kits after a short time because they've seen that as soon as the kit willl be re-issued most of the modellers buy it to avoid to be without it if they take it off the market again (tipically this is a Dragon and Italeri policy). Another reason for the kit duplication is that they try to go for the "best sellers" because they say that the AFV market is not as wide (or better rich) as the cars, commercial trucks and planes. Mr. Italery told me that if they issue a new AFV kit they can expect to sell 20.000 units the first year and not more than 5.000 per prodution year. For a commercial truck he claims that the market is at least ten times as big!!!
These are my two cents...
Ciao

I suppose much of my frustration comes from the fact that I really like British armor,softskins and engineer vehicles. I probably feel like many others that (dare I say it on a public forum) that there is an absolute profusion of ww2 german armor, softskins and almost everything else available on the market. Here (in Spain), if you enter a hobby store, the shelves are positively groaning with 387 variants of the Tiger and another 428 panthers... So this is why my credit card is frequently used to support British and U.S. retailers..... Jim #:-)

I haven't built the latest and greatest kits (yet?), I don't critique kits, and I haven't competed in a number of years now, so my post above is based on my experience only. I do think that a little dose of PE on some of the older kits like Tamiya and Italeri do a lot to spice the subject up for my own personal satisfaction.

I do agree that some PE is just plain ridiculous, and I will admit that I haven't used up a whole fret yet on the intended subject.

I focus primarily on 2 types of kits 350 scale warships and 35th scale armor. I buy the PE kits for the warships primaritly to get railings and some of the larger cranes and radar screens. On tanks I mainly want to put the metal grills over the rear deck pieces and replace fenders and side skirts with ones I can bend up. I don't getinto sanding and cutting away molded on detail to replacewith a bent piece of metal unless the molded on part looks terrible (some of the earlier handles for example)

My problem is that, like the vast majority of modellers, I have limited time to devote to the hobby, and of course a finite amount of money to spend. I don't tend to build esoteric subjects either, going more for the form of a vehicle and the overall effect. I love the shape and form of vehicles like engineer vehicles, gun trucks and APCs. I don't have a problem in paying a few more dollars for quality when I know I'm not going to have to buy 3 frets of etched brass, a gun barrel, new tracks and a large lump of resin to turn it into something half-decent. This is why I applaud companies like AFV Club or Accurate who (generally) put everything you need into the box, I just wish that AFV club would start producing figures as well. On the other hand if a vehicle becomes available from companies like Trumpeter or Panda which is only otherwise available in resin, then I'll go for the cheaper option and really go to work on it.....Jim #:-)

Good post Jim stored up a hornets nest,Im on a limited budget and do not buy P.E.or many aftermarket pieces,the only exception will be some wheels with snow chains for myv m.8 armoured car.Im a great fan of Shep Paine and have read his book on building armour kits over and over I baught it in 1976 his kits were all the old tamyia and italieri lumps but he improved them with scratchbuilt items.Now if I could build a model that good from a 1972 kit some stretched sprue and some lead foil I would be one happy bunny.I priced up the indie links for my Tamyia marder these people are having a laugh they cost more than the kit did! My last major layout was the Academy M.10 my reasons for chosing this kit was,like the vehicle price was reasonable £22 pretty accurate and that box is crammed with goodies they are my reasons for selecting a major kit purchase,I wont buy the verlinden stowage kit for it I will make my bedrolls from Tissue paper straps from wine bottle tops (plenty of emptys in this house)Jerry cans from Italieri £3 for the best set of cans Ive seen for a long time.If i cant make a decent kit with that lot I will take up golf.Ive spilled my dirty water enjoyed this post Im signing off and Im opening a bottle of vin rouge night all. #:-)

I consider that stirring up a hornet's nest is indeed a compliment.... #:-)