Dear all.
I have just read and looked at two really good articles posted by two really good builders. The kits were well assembled, excellently painted and on one, the markings brilliantly applied to a Zimmerit coating.

Now the reason for my post. 'WHY' do great models have and some modellers insist, on wanting to paint the tracks to resemble them looking like they are 'RUSTY". or even just partly so.

Like some other site members of this BB. I served on tracked Armor (Armour) for many years and all of them (I hope) will back me up and tell you, that within just a few minutes of moving, you do not have nor will you see Rust on tracks.

Having taken tracked vehicles (Scimitar, Scorpion) to the North of Norway and to the cold, snowy/ rainy, muddy training areas of Germany etc. (Chieftain, Challenger 1) 'Red/Brown/Rust' is NOT seen.
Any amount that was present, is gone very shortly after moving off, especially accross country.

Certainly in the low humidity of the middle east and parts of Afghanistan, and it's sand, it is out of the question. Sand of course does do a wonderful job of cleaning your tracks, sprockets and paint from the lower portions of your vehicle!

When the Old Centurion's were parked in the tank parks after being washed down, it took DAYS if not a week or more, before even medium level of rust appeared on their 'all steel' tracks, much like the Tiger's and other Panzers of WW2 that many of you love to build.

So my question to you is, WHY the fascination and popularity for Red or Rusty looking tracks on your models? and where do you get the idea it is correct?

Of course IF you are depicting a vehicle that has been 'unmoved' for an extended period of time, I fully understand. But then the sprockets and teeth, Idlers and wheels need attention as well...

A good competion judge would/should do well to look at the models presentation and first determine if it is a vehicle, IN USE or not! and go from there...

Just my humble opinion of course and I hope to read some of your comments and feed back.

Keith.

I agree, we see much too much rust on models depicting a vehicle in action or in service. Having said that, there will be times when a current vehicle will have rust on tracks or photos of a vehicle in combat will show signs of rust. The people who want to paint their tracks rusty will use this as justification to paint all their tracks rusty. To each his own.

I agree with you, what isn't correct though is a set of 'Rusty' tracks on a Tiger with all Steel wheels that have NO rust on them.
The same with sprockets and idlers on any tracked vehicle

They are mating surfaces and will rust or not accordingly and in tandem!!

Our latest 'modern' era vehicles use a lot of Alloys and composite materials, so they are not prone to this problem as much..
Having said that, some of the newer Slat Armour can and will rust depending on where the vehicle is serving.

Some small areas, even on in service vehicles, will naturally have rust, such as exhaust/muffler and engine/transmission deck items, but my bone of contention is mainly with, tracks, sprockets, idlers and wheels.


Keith.
Ps. My thanks to whoever promoted me to Corporal, Cyber drinks all round..

I totally agree with you Keith. I've never served on armored vehicles but my dad did in WW2, and I've talked about this with him, plenty of dirt/dust, and mud but very little rust. On top of that if my memory serves me correctly, it is my understanding that many of the tank tracks used in WW2 were were made with magnesium in them, which doesn't rust. Someone please correct me if I have that wrong.

Mike

Hi Keith,

Saw your post on the Carriers. Here's a couple of pics I used as a guide from a running Carrier.







Now I've no idea how long or how often this vehicle might get driven but as you will see there is a dulled brownish appearance all over with the ribs being shinny.

I have no idea if the steel used in modern AFVs is the same steel they used in WW2 or if that would make any differnece at all. I'd agree I've never seen rust on a modern running AFV, but then again I've never seen a working WW2 AFV in the field so can't say for sure.

I would agree about the Tigers and the brown rusty track and not a sign of rust anywhere else.

Is it your opinion that the tracks would be mainley shinny metal?

Cheers

Al

Nice vehicle you have there Alan.
But it does need some chips and a little dust scattered on that lower hull Mate.
Way to neat.
Rusting tracks well thats is a good question.
I guess it is more of the Norm now that if you don't somebody might say "where is the Rust on those tracks"

Me I do like it myself but heck not everybody does,so I guess a matter of choice.
Good question though.
Along with chips out the butt and other things that I think are overdone a little but still look great,according to who makes the model.
Look at some of the older Missing-Lynx models from years ago very well done indeed.

Just my opinion.

And Keith I hope you get your MMIR first.

Alan.
I concur with your views and perhaps we can see that this is restored vehicle used only when a show or special occasion comes around. I would think it is safe say, that the small amount of movement on this display day has started to remove any build up due to storage.
A fine, sunny, dry day, on grass, now imagine running up a wet sandy Normandy beach and out through the countryside, at the end of the day, NO rust, plenty of dirt and shine...Or mud caked..

I will dig out a couple of Chieftain ones, in wet muddy, snowy conditions, you can see the teeth on the tracks for miles.

Keith.

Hi Keith,

Yip, I normally don't do any more tkan the odd spot of rust, if that, on a working vehicle. My thoughts on the carrier were that most if not all vehicles were stored in woods, fields and vehicle parks prior to D Day. Once the units reached the coast they had a frantic couple of days (a week?) waterproofing the vehicles and they then were loaded onto the ships. The loading must have taken palce over at least 4 days to a week, so the vehicles would have been on ship for between 48 to 72 hours (best guess) and in that environment the tracks would have dulled fast - hence my efforts on the carrier.

I could be totally wrong in my thinking here, but that seemed reasonable.

I'd agree that once they started to roll the 'rust' would have vanished within a very short time. I had a similar conversation about the tracks on my Dozer but pointed out the fact that all the tracked vehicles were travelling considerable distance often at full speed so rust simply wold not appear unless they had been stationary for several days.

We had AFV 432s in Germany as part of 4th Armoured Brigade and I never saw rust anywhere on the beasties, even after 6 weeks in the field.

Al

Ah yes mate, the venerable 432, nice to see it is soldering on eh. Bulldog, one of my 'to do' in the future items.

I totally agree with evrything you say and it all boils down to how you are presenting your particular model. It seems your scenario is correct.

My peeve is when you see a lovely well done item on a good diorama base, in action and the tracks are worse than Lucille Ball's hair (Red rust)....The story your portraying will determine how any model is painted, that's the key for me.

I posted a diorama on this site earlier last month and was quickly told my sign post was wrong as that particular unit (based on vehicle markings) didn't serve in that area! and that a King Tiger would not be backed into a ruined house? Then of course, my tracks were to clean???

Things like this can be very annoying, why, because if a judge is going to pick it apart then don't be one sided about it!
It is always prudent to wonder if perhaps the maker/presenter has some knowledge based on reality or real world experience.

I stopped entering competitions after my Chieftain was soundly beaten by another Tamiya Chieftain that was built right out of the box and painted in Sand color with some Arabic numerals/lettering on it and the write up declared it was an Iranian Mk10. He, the judge, told me later, my coloring was all wrong, based on the pictures and books he has seen!!

I said nothing until after the prize giving and questioned the chief Armor Judge about it, he stated "it won because it was nicely built and painted"
My comment to him was simple, the item regardless of class, has to be what the entry form claims it is for a starter.. Everybody knows (certainly an armor judge should) the Tamiya Chieftain is a non existant mark, it certainly isn't an Iranian Mk 10, which didn't and never existed either?

That was me done and it has been some 10 years since I last entered a competition.

Getting back on track, a nice all rusty Tiger was present at the same show but it was a diorama based on sometime (years) after the end of WW2 and had a tree growing out of the turret hatch (the Belly armour had been blown). Now that was a good one.

Keith.

Hi Keith,

Ah judges lol, lol. I've only ever entered 2 kist and that was on this site. Needless to say I didnlt win but I also didn't gain anything by the experience, so competitions don't feature in any of my thinking as I've see the winners too, expertly painted to the last detail and just like a model. lol, lol. I've moaned about that before but then every one to their own.

I'll see if any other thoughts spring up about the tracks, I'm happy to change the colour if I get enough sound advice, main reason I post really.

Cheers

Al

Alan, with you all the way mate.
The competitions were local IPMS ones, nothing to do with this wonderful site...

I found that the very small bottle of Testors flat 'Rubber' is a great dark Brown starting colour.
It can be lightened enhanced or changed to cover almost any scenerio, including Steel. Don't let the Rubber name fool you it is a very useful item and cheap.

Paint a piece of sprue with some and see what I mean, then weather it. It will look very close to the photos of the restored Bren Carrier.

take a look at these tracks, after a week on the training area, now back in camp getting cleaned and serviced...



Keith.