This may be the wrong plcae to put this, since it's not really about scratchbuilding, but I could think of no other place to put it.

I was wondering if anyone knows the legality of selling resin copies of sotwage items that come with kits. I know some of the Chinese and Korean companies have directly copied kits from other manufacturers, and sold them under their own name without permission, and there was really no retaliation that I know of. Just the lower quality of the copy speaking for itself. I picked up a verlinden stowage set once, and noticed that a few but not all of the items in the set, were direct copies of items in a couple of Tamiya kits that I have.

So needless to say I am a bit curious. The items I'm interested in selling are stowage items, mostly bedrolls and such, since my sculpting skills leave alot to be desired. Hopefully within 6 months or so I'll have them up to where I can make my own items from scratch.

I know I could just cast and sell privately, but I would rather make them part of a set, that I can put into a product line.

It's piracy and it's wrong and illegal. Just because others have gotten away with it is not justification to copy other people's work and sell it as your own.

I made no contention of selling it as my own work. These are mostly items the manufacturers will not sell outside of a specific kit.

My question to you is, would it still be piracy for me to cast copies of the solid vision blocks in Trumpeter's Stryker kit in clear resin? Or would it be more prudent to tell people sorry about your luck, learn how to resin cast, and if you can't tough luck?

I know I can always modify them, and add detail to them, althought hey are pretty nice as is. I am casting resin copies of these items as is, but I've not sold a single one, they are for my own personal use, which is not piracy. I refuse to spend 40 bucks on another copy of the kit just for a few added stowage items.

Looks like it's the modification or added detail then, before I sell them.

If you cast anything using someone else's piece as a master and then sell them commercially it is piracy ....no if ands or buts about it.
You will defiantly need to modify it before introducing it into the marketplace with your (company) name on it.

Cheers,
Charles

Michael,

Selling a dup of another manufacturer's item is, flat out, WRONG and illegal. Were you to cast a kit part and sell it....bad move...Ye shall suffer the consequences!

HOWEVER, and I'm sure I'll hear a rash of pooter about this, but.....

CAN YOU CHANGE IT???? Here's what I mean. If you take an item that's not produced outside of the kit it comes with, MODIFY IT by adding greater detail or "correcting" it, then in my non-legally-binding-thought-process, I believe you'd be justified to sell it as "yours." Let me expand a wee bit....merely taking an item and scraping a little bit of extra detail...(no thought, no research, no creativity)...is THEFT. Add major detail...really produce a serious "version B," I'd think you'd be good to go.

Take kit part A and reproduce to B....Wrong!
Take kit part A and reproduce to C...with a wee bit' o change....No.
Take kit part A and reproduce to D...with a whole lotta change....Sure.

Mike

And, this is merely my opinion....However, I do not, in any way, shape, or form, condone recasting or recasters for profit (i.e. selling a recast for money).

Well I've always been of the opinion that no matter if I change something or make it available again, I have ALWAYS given credit to the original makers. Usually this has been done with software or scripts. I've not done it with anything else before. Just electronic media. The license agreement I give with all software and such I create is, feel free to modify or use any part of it at any time. Charging is up to you, the only requirement is I be given credit in the proper area. Just a simple thanks to Michael for providing the base or a few parts of or something like that. I ask for nothing more, no links no nothing. I don't even care where it is placed, as long as if someone wants to look, they can find it. I ALWAYS give credit where credit is due. If I modify the pee out of it, and then cast and sel, I will still give credit that it is a modified part from whoever.

The biggest issue out there, is that the resin stowage items that are for sale in the AM are ungodly expensive. I mean cme on 35 bucks for about 2 or 3 dollars worth of resin and a 5 dollars worth of molds? Thats considering buying the smallest volumes of mold making and resin available, you know they are buying it in bulk and getting a far better rate then I am. Plus most of them being direct copies of styrene originals mostly from Tamiya. Thei profit margin is incredable. The sale of 3 or 3 sets, recovers the cost 100% and then a little extra. Everything beyond that for all intents and purposes is close to 600% profit. Right now I'm casting direct copies for my own personal use. I can't afford to spend 100 bucks for some resin stowage items for a single kit. I'm making copies of what comes int he kits and using them for myself.

I would like to be able to offer something up, at a reasonable cost. I'm not a sculpture artist, in any way. I've been trying for 6 months. What I've gotten so far is beyond pathetic. LOL. There are enough manufacturers such as Dragon and Tamiya selling good figures and good weapons at a reasonable price, that that stuff is moot. I picked up a set of Tamiya sandbags for 2.50, and a set of Tamiya modern U.S. military figures for about 10 bucks. Not a bad deal at all. Surely the resin figures cost more, but the detail level is far superior. The figures are still reasonably priced compared to the styrene versions by Tamiya or Dragon though. The difference in price isn't even that much. Sotwage is where the problem comes in. Bedrolls and tarps are easy enough to do with white glue and tissue. I use white glue and a type of very expensive paper towel that has no design textures, and is easier to work with then plain tissue. I would love to make resin copies of these, but the mold would slide too far into the part and make removal impossible without destroying the mold and the original. Although if anyone has suggestions on this, they would be GREATLY appreciated, as I could do originals that way. Packs and the like are where the issue comes in.

Just like any other stuff out there that speaks of money, direct copy or semi-modified copy is surely wrong.

However, it is legal for one to have several copies for one's sake. I burn some of my original games and create several copies of it for backup purposes BUT, I do not sell these no matter the price.

Same goes with resins. Do several copies for yourself and don't plan on selling them. However, giving them away for free may be a bit different.

Consider this if you will:

The first painter to think of putting the stuff he's been slapping on cave walls has a brain wave, and slaps it on a piece of rawhide. Thus he has created the first, and thus original 'canvas' ..
If the second painter paints an identical painting on a piece of rawhide, everybody would agree that that was piracy. Bad move, and painter one takes large dinosaur tibia and whacks painter two...

Having learned his lesson, painter two paints a different painting on a piece of rawhide. Painter one is still not happy, because he regards the rawhide as his idea. Why can't painter two paint on a piece of wood? Still, as the painting is completely different, painter one will let it go. Besides, the Iguanadon is ready, and he is starving...

Painter two still likes the original painting though, and after some thought decides to paint it again, but adds a pair of fictional, very large teeth to the animal to make it different from the original. The first painter, upon returning from his supper, is not best pleased, and goes to fetch his large dinosaur bone...

Hi Henk. Have you been home recently? Ate too many coffee cakes by any chance??

I´m just thinking the same thing Frank, Maybe he´s raiding the fridge at this very moment. Piracy is wrong but there are points to be debated,like one or two spare wheels or rucksacks etc. for personal use is one thing another is large scale production for sale.

If you choose to do this fine, you are evidently giving explicit rights to do this. Others however may not. Dragon, Tamiya and whatever other company don't go to the expense of developing and producing an item just for the "credit.' They do it for the money. "Its someone else's work, I just copied it" will NOT stand as a defense in court, in fact it is an explicit admission of guilt. Likewise, a defense of "I allow others to copy my work so I should be able to copy their's" is also going to end in conviction. Chinese companies have a tendency to get away with this because of Chinese copyright laws, however, most other countries frown on the idea of copyright piracy.

Before copying someone else's work, and especially SELLING it, consider this question, would you send an email to the company and let them know that you intend to do it? Unless you are comfortable with doing this, and abiding by their answer, you run the possibility of prosecution. Before saying that Verlinden does it, find out if Verlinden has obtained permission to do it. I think that you find that often they have.

John

Actually I have considered, and would for sure send Trumpeter an e-mail about it. I would even be happy to pay them a royalty based upon percentage as well.

While we're on the subject, anyone know of any sites that might have tutorials or howto's on sculpting 1:35 scale stowage items? Rolls are easy but like I said, I'm looking for packs.

Regarding Verlinden, the only thing I said is SOME of the items were DIRECTLY copied, I reserved judgement on if it was with or without permission.


*EDIT*
I have just sent an e-mail off to Trumpeter, requesting permission to copy these parts, and offering to pay a percentage as royalty.

The questions still stands about tutorials on sculpting my own.

I'd start with a "blob" of a quick setting epoxy putty... Smaller than what you want. then use something like Aves Line to add to it.

Have you consisdered asking someone to sculpt originals for you and you buy the master with full copyright,thats how it works with the big companies with figures etc.This way you can have the exact product you need and the freedom to do as you please with it.Put a post on the site for a sculpter to do the commission and i think you will solve the problem.I cannot foresee this being too expensive if you are looking for stowage equipment in 1/35 scale,and it is a very simple sculpt.

Steve

I agree with Steve (AKA1969) There are alot of us who can sculpt, that would be glad to help you out. Anyway either way good luck in your endevor.

I agree with the sculpto boys.
Short term pain for long term gain, not the other way around...
(And the short term pain is relative, too)
Brad

I'll be honest I never thought of comissioning someone to sculpt. Especially considering my low cash flow(I deliver pizza part time while in school for my degree). Although I'm assuming also that since Steve put the waving hand up, it was kind of a hint.

Ok I'll take the bait. How much? Not looking for bedrolls those are easy as pie. Looking for things like packs, etc. Maybe some folded up cots, or hanging jackets, stuff like that. Weapons are also no biggy.

*EDIT*
Reminds me, if I do comission someone to do it for me, you will be getting full credit for making the masters. Including a web link if you so desire. Just a thought.

Well Trumpeter coppied kits en masse when they started out, including Tamiya ships(aka Hobbyboss). Don't some resin suppliers modify say the hull of a stock kit, add details, and cast from that? Just about every other week I see a review for a resin upgrade kit with modified turrets or recasts of kit tire/wheel combos.

Well it is a bit different to modify the original just a bit, in order to create the parts to convert for another version. That way the parts will surely fit the kit which it is based on.

http://home.woh.rr.com/misellus/recast_faq3.htm
bear in mind that many of those same producers/ sculpters visit these boards to see what's the opinion of their kits and they read your post.

When we started up our business to do resin many years ago I went to a lawyer that delt in copyrights (free community service, 30 minutes!) and I was told that if there is a 10% change to an original peice it becomes the property of the person that made that change. Hence, taking a Tamiya PZIII wheel, removing the hub, drilling bolt holes and adding bearing races changes the peice greater than 10% and I could not be sued by Tamiya. He also made a interesting point. Going from plastic to resin might, but ONLY might, be considered a 10% change. Not wanting to be a test case for this, we avoided it like the plague!

In this regard, if you compared a pack that comes in a kit to a resin copy and there are new pack straps, then that could be 10% change. It becomes a judgment call. We always made sure to go well beyond that 10% so there was obvious differences from a kit part, to a part we were selling. If you look around you will see that there are many resin manufacterers that have kit parts in their sets. It is not the entire set, but small fiddly things like canteens, air cleaners and the like. Since you need the plastic model to build the kit, Tamiya etc. still sells models. I have seen my work copied for the benefit of others, so I know the feeling that this can generate. The consolation prize was that the copies were terrible.

From a customers view, I buy resin stuff that I do not want to make myself, packs sculpted look a lot better that ones copied from plastic kit parts. That is the way that I would go.

Oops, I just caught a comment here. Yes, resin is cheap, the mold is your most costly item.

Now, add in what you want to pay yourself for doing the actual work, or have some one do it for you. Add in the all the time spent on instructions, labels etc. Advertising, reference books, quality control? That 5 dollar kit may only cost 30 cents per part in rubber and resin, but 2 dollars in time effort and the rest of it. Now, sell to a distributor that is demanding you sell to them for 40% of retail, plus bulk purchase incentives! That is why a set looks over priced to the consumers at times. Rule of thumb in retail is you need a 20% return on the cost of an item to break even (that was years ago, so I am just guessing). This is why the feelings are so strong against pirating others work.

It is real gravy to sell dirrectly to the modeler, but most are trying to get into the general market. I always look at it from the standpoint of: do I want to make it myself, and how much am I willing to pay for it if I don't. Some times, I just do with out it.

Echoing what Randall said. I've heard the 10% rule too. I know for a fact that a certain after market company out there, (I'll keep the name out of it for fear of reprisal) does this on every, and I mean every full kit, upgrade or accessory he puts out. I've seen the masters and I can ID which kit the parts came from. As far as I know he has never once been sued for copyright infringement. That tells me that if you change the part enough to look different than what it started out as, its all your own work. I've made molds of lots of stuff over the years. I've neer once sold any of it though. Like you said, $35 for a few pieces of resin that I'll use on one project I don't think so. Good luck with your venture. "Q"

Hmmm...Maybe we're thinking of the same company...
10% rule or not, I don't think cutting a few nicks in a road wheel or grinding off the rubber completely and adding bit of wire around the wheel constitute your own work.
Casting a perfectly good Tamiya T-55 fuel cell, and squeezing the mold as you pour the resin in to make a "heat deformed tank" doesn't qualify for me either. Not saying that's how it was done, but that's how I do it, and I never sold any because I didn't CREATE anything.
If I were to copy the M40 barrel I lengthened, I'm not even sure I'd be comfortable with that.
I think if several of the larger companies wanted to press the issue, they'd win, but they don't primarily because you have to buy their kits in order to use the parts, so they sort of win out in the end anyway. Plus the fact that it's just not a good use of their time and resources.

To illustrate:
Would I sell copies of this? No. Far more than 10% changed, but ultimately not mine.



Yes. All mine, complete with errors in height.



No. Again. not my work for the most part, but rather some dude with way more skill than me making a mold for the original.



Yes, if I knew how...



No. Even though the original kit was a true bowser in every sense, all I did was correct someone else's work.



Yes.



No.



And finally a trick question:



No. There's already one incorrect M109 interior on the market. I don't need to add mine.

So that's how I roll, at least.