Treu, it was a bit off topic. One of my late night rants, I guess. Yes, Germany would have to enter Italy from the top, and the terrain is much more rugged than where they entered France or Russia (see I'm tieing it back in). Mr. McDonald is quite correct about entering Italy. That's how the German tribes entered Rome, but don't forget, the US & British entered it from the sole!

This is a great thread. Even if Germany had managed to conquer European Russia in WWII, they still would have had their hands full with Asian Russia. Russia is just so damn big! They did manage to knock Russia out of WWI, and they still lost that war.

Jim

If the Nazi’s had captured Russia, they would have been spread too thin. I don’t think the fall of (communist) Russia would have made much difference. Think of how successful resistance could be on such long lines of communications. A lot of the resources gained would be lost or spent trying to get them to centers of production.
It’s just to big of a bite to chew- you either choke on it, or spite it out.

A lot of what if`s. Realisticly the Geman army would have been hard pressed to control all of Russia. A compromise would of had to of been made much as they did with the Vichy`s in France,although it was very shaky.Hitler would not have stopped until he had either conquered all,been conquered in a firey death or been executed.

I don't think Hitler would have tried to conquer all of Russia. A more sensible approach would have been to treat the various Nationalities like the Ukranians and Latvians and all the others as allies, not slaves to be exterminated. That would have solved the partisan problem and allowed the Germans to concentrate their forces on mobile warfare. After taking as much of Russia as he could use, Hitler could have dictated a peace that would have disarmed the remains of the Soviet Union and forced it to provide tribute on a scale that would keep it a weak, third rate country.

After a long consolidation period the Germans probably would have moved through Iran and into the Middle East to deny the British the Oil that they needed.

With the resources they had gained, the Germans could have built a Navy that could defeat the Royal Navy and blockade the British into defeat. This would allow them to concentrate on preparing to face us in a cold war. However, instead of the space race being the Soviet's German Scientists against our German Scientists, the race would have gone to the Germans. If they controlled the high ground (space) the outlook for the USA would be pretty bleak. The Germans wouldn't need atomic weapons, kinetic strikes from orbit would be far more effective and much cheaper.

Had Hitler conquered all he hoped to, we would be living in Hary Turtledoves world, alternate history series. In reality, to conquer a nation, you must have the support of it's people. It seems to me that in the case of dictators and such, that they never learn lesson # 1. When you loosen your armies against the civilians, it unites them to a common cause. Just look at the Russians and Americans when they were attacked or the American Indians. They put aside their differances for the common good. Just look at the actions of terrorist and the responce of the world population. They don't last above ground very long. Aside from that, you must remmember the resistance fighters. As many illegal guns that are here in the U.S. and legal ones, I find it very hard to imagine Hitler or anyone from taking controll of the U.S. when we have a hard enough time keeping our own steets safe for ourselves. As far as an invading force taking over let alone controlling our counties, my reply would be, come take them! I would not want to be the invader trying to take away my freedom. As the saying goes, you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hand. Even back then, there were enough good people to take a stand against what is wrong and if nessisary, to give up their lives for the right of humanity.
And yes, Germany/Japan were both working on atomic bombs. Hitler just pissed off enough people that we were able to get them to help us instead. It also helpe that Hitler was a complete idiot and drug addict. Long live freedom and those who support it.!!!

may i recommend "the king in the high castle" novel by phillip k disk for an alternate history of ww2.
Not historical more a thriller but an interesting read. Hilter in a sanatorium. California run by Japan,
east coast run by Germany. Africa "ethnically cleansed". by the A bomb.
Russian surrenders after losing a town on the Volga. Stalingrad does not exist in that world.
El Duce upholds culture in the West.

I read with interest the discussion about Germany (or Japan) building the A-Bomb. There is very interesting book entitled "The Making of the Atomic Bomb" by Richard Rhodes. It is one of the most exhaustive, informative books I've ever read and after reading it and discovering the enormous technological problems involved, I concluded (as well as any 'what if' question can be concluded) that Germany, even after the conquest of Europe to the Urals, could not have produced an Atomic Bomb as quickly as the US did if at all.

The "Bomb" was, of course, based on the famous E=mc^2 equation from Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity of 1905. Einstein's work was forbidden in the Third Reich on the orders of Hitler and Goebbels because it was "Jew science". After Lise Meitner proved that the splitting of the atom could be done with a tremendous release of energy, scientists like Fermi and Szilard (by this time in the US) set about persuading the US goverment to begin the basic nuts and bolts of building a Bomb. It took thousands of scientists and engineers at Los Alamos, Hanford and Kentucky and elsewhere to even begin the process of making enough enriched Uranium, and later, Plutonium to make a prototype bomb.

The US was the only place with the scientists, engineers, and MONEY where this could be brought together to accomplish anything of this scope.

During approximately the same time frame, it became apparant to people like Carl Spaatz and Jimmy Doolittle that the possibility existed that it might be necessary to bomb Europe from North America. This was the thinking that gave rise to the B-29. True, the Germans did a great deal of work on their North Amerika bomber, and I understand they even built and flew one to New York on a test flight. I'm not sure exactly how many B-29's were built but I know it was more than Germany industry could have dreamed of.

And, while all this was happening, the German Army was sitting on the vast powderkeg of Europe while Germany was increasing it's use of slave labor to try to keep its machinery running. Germany is simply not big enough to permanently enslave an area that big with thousands of hate filled subject populations being subject to Nazi terror. It would be a vast bleeding wound that would have only grown with time.

The horrible tragedy of the result of a Nazi conquest of Europe would have been the possibilty that, in order to reduce the submarine threat in the Atlantic it might have necessary for the US to use the Bomb on British and French bases or possibly the Hawaiian Islands. I get sick to my stomach thinking about it. It wouldn't have been the end of the world, but it would be a very differant and much sadder world than what we now have.

Just some thoughts.

Germany, would only be delaying the inevitable. empires are froged over hundreds of years not a decade. the manpower requiered to police communist Russia would be impossible even with mondern assistance.( I state this as a result of a victory past 1943... when the Russian peasents no longer viewed them as liberators.) but the Germans would've dragged any poor bugger they could get their hands on to their firey grave.

"There are no winners in war just those left with the horror to remember them."
Cheers,
mat

Supposing Hitler defeated the Russians and the war would have forged on past VE day on May 8,1945. VJ day was only four months later. Supposing Truman, after seeing victory with Japan by using the bomb , went ahead and dropped one on Munich? Could be for sure ,that it would have been the end of The Third Riech And any other Riech that anyone might have had in mind. It is all a matter of what if and speculation , a very interesting subject. So many very interesting points of view on this thread. Very educational.