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Mortars
blaster76
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Posted: Friday, June 29, 2007 - 06:56 AM UTC
Had a few questions about types and ranges of mortars, but thought I'ld just open a general one so that any and all throughout history could be discussed without someone going off topic.

My questions:

During late war Pacific was there a mortar squad or platoon attached to infantry companies? What size mortar did they use? What was it's range. NOw My initial thought would be there was a squad or a section and they used 60mm. I know my dad was at Okinawa and started out as a part of a mortar crew but when they ran out of ammo they went to pure infantry...though he fought with an M1 carbine.

What is range of an 81mm, a 4.2" and one of those giant train pulled ones the Germans used?

Other thoughts are first mortars used, civil war mortars, trench mortars, size and range of non-US mortars
Timd346
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Posted: Monday, July 02, 2007 - 03:26 AM UTC
OKay i got this out of my gramps book who was in the 90th chemical mortar battalion. He fought in the european front and when they bombed the ramegan bridge they had one company attached to an ifantry and they bombed the bridge they used 4.2 mortars. each mortar weighed a wopping 300 pounds.Each shell weighed 25 pounds. maximum range 4400 yards muzzle velocity 841 fps. Max rate of fire 20 rounds per a minute. I hope that helps you.

Tim
blaster76
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Posted: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 09:33 AM UTC
OK so we got 4 and a half klics for a four deuce....I think the modern day ones go closer to 6K now. Any body got anything else. Come on I know there has to be a few of you out there that had the joy of dropping the round down the tube, slidding your hands down that HOT tube and trying to get them to your ears before the round went off. (Yup, been there done that)
Fitz
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Posted: Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 03:25 PM UTC
Mortars are most commonly thought of and used as infantry weapons, being issued down to platoon level in some instances to provide the infantry with immediate fire support. Modern (WWII to today) infantry mortars are usually smoothbore and generally break down into 3 categories.

Light mortars for use at the platoon or company level. These are usually of the 50-60mm variety. Platoon mortars could be very basic, what are now commonly referred to as "Commando Mortars" like the WWII British 2-inch, bascially consisting of a tube, a tiny baseplate and some crude sighting apparatus. Range was maybe 400-600 meters in WWII but today can reach 800-1,000 meters for many with the Austrian 60mm C6 being the champ at 1,600 meters. These can be operated by one or 2 men though more are needed to carry useful supplies of ammunition.

Historical examples would be the British (actually Spanish-designed) 2-inch mortar of WWII with a 450 meter range and weighing 8.7 kg- about as simple and crude as one can make a mortar. The Brandt 47mm "Platoon Mortar" was the French answer and unlike many other Brandt designs now largely forgotten. The needlessly complex German 5cm GrW 36 compares interestingly to the British weapon. Where the Brit mortar had a white stripe painted on it for aiming and notches on the carring strap to determine range by placing your boot on the appropriate notch, the German mortar had a very intricate and delicate sight - and one totally pointess in a 500 meter ranged weapon. At 14 kg it was also very heavy for a platoon weapon. The Russians had a bewildering array of 50mm weapons Of these only the British weapon was successful and has spawned dozens of imitators in the years since.

Also used at platoon level are crew-served weapons with a sturdy bipod and baseplate and more effective sights. These usually require a crew of at least 3 and are thus more common in the support platoon at company level than in the infantry platoons. Typical historical examples are the Brandt 60mm M1934, adopted by the U.S. as the M2 which has served as the prototype for 60mm mortars ever since. For example, in a WWII U.S. Infantry Company two 60mm M2 mortars would be deployed while in an armored infantry company each platoon would have two of these weapons - their deployment at such low level being made possible by vehicle mobility. In WWII such mortars would typically reach to between 1,000 m and 1,800 m but modern equivilants typically reach 3,500 to 4,000 m with several companies in France and China for example offering "Long Range" 60mm mortars with ranges in excess of 6,000 meters. These are offered as alternatives to the longer-ranged "Medium Mortars".

Medium Mortars are typically of 80-82mm caliber (the WWI-WWII British "3-inch" - 76.2mm - being a rare exception) and deployed at company, or more commonly at battalion level. These are much heavier than 60mm mortars and typically require at least 5 men to operate though as few as 3 can carry the weapon proper over short distances.

The 3-inch "Stokes Trench Mortar" of 1915 was the first mortar to take on the familiar shape of infantry mortars we know today, with a bipod, baseplate and tube, each carried by 1 man. During the 1920's French designer Edgar Brandt developed a similar mortar and his designs have been more or less copied by everyone else since. Indeed, the success of Brandt's designs has led to the de-facto adoption of the calibers he favored - 60mm, 81mm and 120mm as international standards. The basic principles of the modern mortar have changed little since but they have become lighter, longer ranged and more lethal.

The Brandt 81mm M1927/31 was a 62 kg weapon that had a range of 3,100 meters and was adopted by the U.S. Army and used extensively throughout WWII as the M1. Also just before the war Brandt developed two longer-ranged 81mm battalion mortars that could reach 5,000 and 6,200 meters respectively. These saw little use before the war but became the basis for Brandt's extensive post-war product catalog.

The 3-inch Stokes, in improved form was still in use in WWII with British and Commonwealth armies at battalion level to supplement the 2-inch in the platoons. This was a 50 kg weapon with a range increased from 1,600 to 2,500 meters.

The German's during WWII had the 8.0cm GrW 34, a 56 kg weapon with a range of 2,400 meters. Initially the German's deployed these at battalion level with the 5.0cm GrW 36 being deployed with the infantry platoons but as the lighter weapon was withdrawn from 1941 and replaced by rifle grenades at squad level the GrW 34 began to be issued two to each rifle company in addition to a full platoon at battalion. Later a second "Heavy" mortar platoon of 120mm mortars was added to the battalion.

While most of the west except Britain adopted some form of Brandt 81mm medium mortar and the German's used their own 80mm design, the Russian's adopted an 82mm weapon. One odd result is that while it is possible to fire western 81mm ammo from a Russian mortar, the bigger Russian bombs will not fit in western weapons. The Russian weapon was a Brandt clone except for the caliber and fired a 3.4 kg bomb to 3,000 meters. Improved versioins are still stanard weapons in the Russian and ex-Soviet inspired states today.

Finally are the Heavy Mortars of 100-120mm caliber. These are usually transported on wheeled carriages behind a motor vehicle with the wheels being removed when the weapon is prepared for firing. In the firing position heavy mortars typically have the familiar modern mortar configuration of baseplate, bipod and barrel.

Among the first modern heavies was a 4-inch rifled version of the Stokes, developed for use in WWI and deployed by "Chemical Companies" to delivery smoke and gas projectiles. This weapon was also adopted by the U.S. By WWII this design had been superceded by a 411 kg 4.2-inch rifled weapon which was adopted by the U.S. and Britain and served as the basis for the American 107mm M30 weapon which continued in service through the 1980's! WWII versions could reach 3,700 meters with streamlined bombs and during WWII these were again issued to "chemical companies" as a means of delivering smoke or gas bombs but more typicall fired HE (and never gas).

Brandt was a pioneer in heavy mortars post-WWI developing his 120mm mortar in the 1930's with a range of 3,900 meters for the "light" version and 7,000 meters for the "field mortar". There was even a heavy model with 8,000 meter range for use by the artillery. Brandt's designs were adopted by the Russian's and later by the German's who were impressed with the performance of weapons they captured from the Russians in 1941. The Germanized Russian-Brandt was to become a standard battalion-level weapon in the German army during WWII, supplementing the basic 80mm mortar which continued to serve both at the battalion and company level. This 285kg weapon could fire to 6,000 meters The Brandt range of 120mm weapons continues to be produced today with a number of light, medium and heavy smoothbore models and a highly successful rifled weapon, the 560 kg MO-120-RT61 with a range of 13,000 meters firing rocket assisted rounds.

Before the German's copied the Russian copy of the 120mm Brandt they had a 100mm "Chemical Mortar" of their own, which like other armies chemical mortars ended up lobbing normal HE as a regular mortar.

Interestingly, the Russian's while adopting the 120mm Brandt as a standard weapon also developed a 107mm (4.2-inch mortar) of local design. Unlike the U.S./British weapons this one is a smoothbore and it was apparently developed as a more portable weapon for mountain troops.

Additionally there is some crossover. Mention has already been made of several mortars currently on offer in 60mm caliber that offer the range of 81mm mortars but with the benefits of a much lighter weapon and ammunition. These being intended to replace 81mm mortars in light infantry units. Conversely, as early as 1939 Brandt developed the 81mm M1939 mortar that was lighter than the M1927 and with a reduced range of 2,000 meters as an alternative to the 60mm M1934 company mortar. Brandt has in recent years offered extended range 81mm mortars as replacements/supplements to 120mm mortars, offering similar range performance at much lighter weights. Brandt also have "lightweight" 120mm mortars intended to replace the 81mm at battalion level. They got the market covered.

Comparing ammunition, in WWII for example the German 50mm platoon mortar fired a 0.9 kg HE bomb to 500 meters. The 80mm company/battalion mortar fired a 3.42 kg bomb to 2,400 meters. The 100mm fired a 7.3 kg bomb to 3,000 meters while the 120mm battalion/regimental mortar a 15.8 kg bomb to 6,000 meters. It's not hard to see why the German's dumped their own 100mm mortar for the Russian 120mm.

Somewhat outside the above discussion are the larger modern weapons of 160mm and 240mm caliber. The former were developed by the Soviet's, Finland and Isreal (by way of Finland) and are really too large to be considered infantry weapons, usually being deployed by artillery units. The 240mm mortar was used in small numbers by the Soviet's throughout the Cold War and is definately an artillery weapon.

The modern mortars in use today function in bascially the same way as mortars did in the 1920's but improvements in materials and design allow them to achieve greater range and accuracy at reduced weight.

The British L16A1 81mm mortar set the standard for today's medium mortars when it was introduced in the late 1960's. Compared to the previous standard, the U.S. M1 81mm (Brandt copy) the L16A1 has greater range (5,600 meters vs. 3,000 meters), is much lighter (37.85 kg vs 61.7 kg) and fires ammunition which is much more lethal for the same weight. Other, newer designs have even improved on these impressive specs.

OK, its late and that's enough for now.

Fitz
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Posted: Monday, July 09, 2007 - 02:48 AM UTC
Mortar TOE's

You will not find a concensus on how mortars should be deployed. Everybody has their own way of doing it and it frequently changes.

During WWII the British employed the 2-inch mortar in the infantry platoons and the 3-inch crew-served mortar at battalion. There was no company-level mortar. By the 1960's the 2-inch was officially gone but many in fact survived unofficially to deliver smoke and illuminating rounds only. The 81mm replaced the 3-inch at battalion and numbers were increased to an impressive 9 tubes. Then in the 80's the 51mm mortar was introduced to the platoons. This had a checkered history and was withdrawn from service a couple of years ago to be replaced by 40mm grenade launchers in the infantry sections. Experience in Iraq has given the Brits second thoughts and now they have opened tenders for a 60mm platoon mortar (NATO compatible). British SOF units already use the American 60mm M224 mortar on an as-needed basis.

Finland in WWII employed 81mm mortars at battalion and 60mm mortars in the platoons and company's but post-war the 81mm was pushed down to company level with 3 tubes per company, the 60mm went away as the Finn's regarded it as lacking range and lethality and the 120mm was assigned to a new Mortar Company at battalion level. Then in the 80's the 81mm were withdrawn leaving only the battalion heavy mortars. This changed again in the 90's as the 81mm was re-introduced at Company level but since some of the weapons had been scrapped some units get only 2 tubes instead of 3. Finnish infantry are all motorized either in trucks or tracked all-terrain vehicles so carriage of the big 81's at company level is not such a huge strain.

In the U.S. Army the 60mm mortar was primarily a company level weapon in leg infantry units with 2 mortars per company. The exception was WWII armored infantry units where each rifle platoon had a 60mm mortar team and no mortars at company level. The 81mm was deployed at battalion level with 4 tubes in infantry and 3 tubes in armored infantry battalions, which also had 3 self-propelled 75mm guns. The 4.2-inch was deployed with special Chemical Companies within the division. Post-war the 81mm became the company level weapon with the now "Mechanized Infantry" with 3 (later 2 tubes) and the 60mm withdrawn from the platoons. The 107mm (improved 4.2-inch) became the battalion weapon with 4 tubes. With the introduction of the Bradley IFV the company-level 81mm mortars went away, leaving the mechanized infantry with only the battalion level 107mm tubes. The 107mm has now been replaced by the 120mm. By the time of Vietnam attempts had been made to do away with the 60mm and make 81mm the company weapon but combat experience in the jungle favored the lightweight and mobility of the 60mm and a new weapon, the M224 was developed that could be used as a conventional crew-served or as a mobile "commando" mortar.

Stryker Brigades are interesting. Each company has 2 mortar carriers with an 81mm mortar but for dismounted operations (on foot) each mortar vehicle also carries a 60mm mortar and a supply of ammunition. The battalion has 120mm mortars.

The U.S. Marines have always favored three 60mm mortars at company level and that goes back to WWII. They like the mobility and the coverage that 3 mortars offers. Four 81mm are found in the battalion. During WWII the battalion mortar platoon was issued both 81mm and 60mm mortars to use as the situation dictated. A few other armies to this day practice this, typically with 81mm and 120mm weapons.

The German army of WWII started the war with a 50mm platoon mortar, six 80m mortars at battalion and the 100mm mortar in divisional chemical warfare companies. By the end of the war they had a rifle grenade launcher at squad level, two 80mm at company and a platoon with six 80mm and another platoon with four 120mm mortars in the infantry battalion. Post-war the German's kept only the 120mm at battalion level with no lighter mortars. The Carl Gustav 84mm recoilless gun was used at platoon level to fire smoke and illuminating rounds (not anti-tank rounds, its original intened role) in a mission usually covered by 50-60mm mortars in other armies.

The modern French army loves its mortars. Motorized Infantry Regiments of the French army (4x4 VAB APC's) deploy 4 infantry companies each with two vehicle mounted 81mm mortars. There may also be 60mm weapons in the platoons but I am not certain of this. At battalion level they deploy no less than 12 towed 120mm mortars! Light infantry units had eight 81mm and four 120mm mortars at battalion but that's an old TOE and I'm not sure it's still done that way.

The Canadian Army uses the 81mm at battalion level and the 60mm at platoon level and has for many years.






trickymissfit
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Posted: Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 04:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Mortars are most commonly thought of and used as infantry weapons, being issued down to platoon level in some instances to provide the infantry with immediate fire support. Modern (WWII to today) infantry mortars are usually smoothbore and generally break down into 3 categories.

Light mortars for use at the platoon or company level. These are usually of the 50-60mm variety. Platoon mortars could be very basic, what are now commonly referred to as "Commando Mortars" like the WWII British 2-inch, bascially consisting of a tube, a tiny baseplate and some crude sighting apparatus. Range was maybe 400-600 meters in WWII but today can reach 800-1,000 meters for many with the Austrian 60mm C6 being the champ at 1,600 meters. These can be operated by one or 2 men though more are needed to carry useful supplies of ammunition.

Historical examples would be the British (actually Spanish-designed) 2-inch mortar of WWII with a 450 meter range and weighing 8.7 kg- about as simple and crude as one can make a mortar. The Brandt 47mm "Platoon Mortar" was the French answer and unlike many other Brandt designs now largely forgotten. The needlessly complex German 5cm GrW 36 compares interestingly to the British weapon. Where the Brit mortar had a white stripe painted on it for aiming and notches on the carring strap to determine range by placing your boot on the appropriate notch, the German mortar had a very intricate and delicate sight - and one totally pointess in a 500 meter ranged weapon. At 14 kg it was also very heavy for a platoon weapon. The Russians had a bewildering array of 50mm weapons Of these only the British weapon was successful and has spawned dozens of imitators in the years since.

Also used at platoon level are crew-served weapons with a sturdy bipod and baseplate and more effective sights. These usually require a crew of at least 3 and are thus more common in the support platoon at company level than in the infantry platoons. Typical historical examples are the Brandt 60mm M1934, adopted by the U.S. as the M2 which has served as the prototype for 60mm mortars ever since. For example, in a WWII U.S. Infantry Company two 60mm M2 mortars would be deployed while in an armored infantry company each platoon would have two of these weapons - their deployment at such low level being made possible by vehicle mobility. In WWII such mortars would typically reach to between 1,000 m and 1,800 m but modern equivilants typically reach 3,500 to 4,000 m with several companies in France and China for example offering "Long Range" 60mm mortars with ranges in excess of 6,000 meters. These are offered as alternatives to the longer-ranged "Medium Mortars".

Medium Mortars are typically of 80-82mm caliber (the WWI-WWII British "3-inch" - 76.2mm - being a rare exception) and deployed at company, or more commonly at battalion level. These are much heavier than 60mm mortars and typically require at least 5 men to operate though as few as 3 can carry the weapon proper over short distances.

The 3-inch "Stokes Trench Mortar" of 1915 was the first mortar to take on the familiar shape of infantry mortars we know today, with a bipod, baseplate and tube, each carried by 1 man. During the 1920's French designer Edgar Brandt developed a similar mortar and his designs have been more or less copied by everyone else since. Indeed, the success of Brandt's designs has led to the de-facto adoption of the calibers he favored - 60mm, 81mm and 120mm as international standards. The basic principles of the modern mortar have changed little since but they have become lighter, longer ranged and more lethal.

The Brandt 81mm M1927/31 was a 62 kg weapon that had a range of 3,100 meters and was adopted by the U.S. Army and used extensively throughout WWII as the M1. Also just before the war Brandt developed two longer-ranged 81mm battalion mortars that could reach 5,000 and 6,200 meters respectively. These saw little use before the war but became the basis for Brandt's extensive post-war product catalog.

The 3-inch Stokes, in improved form was still in use in WWII with British and Commonwealth armies at battalion level to supplement the 2-inch in the platoons. This was a 50 kg weapon with a range increased from 1,600 to 2,500 meters.

The German's during WWII had the 8.0cm GrW 34, a 56 kg weapon with a range of 2,400 meters. Initially the German's deployed these at battalion level with the 5.0cm GrW 36 being deployed with the infantry platoons but as the lighter weapon was withdrawn from 1941 and replaced by rifle grenades at squad level the GrW 34 began to be issued two to each rifle company in addition to a full platoon at battalion. Later a second "Heavy" mortar platoon of 120mm mortars was added to the battalion.

While most of the west except Britain adopted some form of Brandt 81mm medium mortar and the German's used their own 80mm design, the Russian's adopted an 82mm weapon. One odd result is that while it is possible to fire western 81mm ammo from a Russian mortar, the bigger Russian bombs will not fit in western weapons. The Russian weapon was a Brandt clone except for the caliber and fired a 3.4 kg bomb to 3,000 meters. Improved versioins are still stanard weapons in the Russian and ex-Soviet inspired states today.

Finally are the Heavy Mortars of 100-120mm caliber. These are usually transported on wheeled carriages behind a motor vehicle with the wheels being removed when the weapon is prepared for firing. In the firing position heavy mortars typically have the familiar modern mortar configuration of baseplate, bipod and barrel.

Among the first modern heavies was a 4-inch rifled version of the Stokes, developed for use in WWI and deployed by "Chemical Companies" to delivery smoke and gas projectiles. This weapon was also adopted by the U.S. By WWII this design had been superceded by a 411 kg 4.2-inch rifled weapon which was adopted by the U.S. and Britain and served as the basis for the American 107mm M30 weapon which continued in service through the 1980's! WWII versions could reach 3,700 meters with streamlined bombs and during WWII these were again issued to "chemical companies" as a means of delivering smoke or gas bombs but more typicall fired HE (and never gas).

Brandt was a pioneer in heavy mortars post-WWI developing his 120mm mortar in the 1930's with a range of 3,900 meters for the "light" version and 7,000 meters for the "field mortar". There was even a heavy model with 8,000 meter range for use by the artillery. Brandt's designs were adopted by the Russian's and later by the German's who were impressed with the performance of weapons they captured from the Russians in 1941. The Germanized Russian-Brandt was to become a standard battalion-level weapon in the German army during WWII, supplementing the basic 80mm mortar which continued to serve both at the battalion and company level. This 285kg weapon could fire to 6,000 meters The Brandt range of 120mm weapons continues to be produced today with a number of light, medium and heavy smoothbore models and a highly successful rifled weapon, the 560 kg MO-120-RT61 with a range of 13,000 meters firing rocket assisted rounds.

Before the German's copied the Russian copy of the 120mm Brandt they had a 100mm "Chemical Mortar" of their own, which like other armies chemical mortars ended up lobbing normal HE as a regular mortar.

Interestingly, the Russian's while adopting the 120mm Brandt as a standard weapon also developed a 107mm (4.2-inch mortar) of local design. Unlike the U.S./British weapons this one is a smoothbore and it was apparently developed as a more portable weapon for mountain troops.

Additionally there is some crossover. Mention has already been made of several mortars currently on offer in 60mm caliber that offer the range of 81mm mortars but with the benefits of a much lighter weapon and ammunition. These being intended to replace 81mm mortars in light infantry units. Conversely, as early as 1939 Brandt developed the 81mm M1939 mortar that was lighter than the M1927 and with a reduced range of 2,000 meters as an alternative to the 60mm M1934 company mortar. Brandt has in recent years offered extended range 81mm mortars as replacements/supplements to 120mm mortars, offering similar range performance at much lighter weights. Brandt also have "lightweight" 120mm mortars intended to replace the 81mm at battalion level. They got the market covered.

Comparing ammunition, in WWII for example the German 50mm platoon mortar fired a 0.9 kg HE bomb to 500 meters. The 80mm company/battalion mortar fired a 3.42 kg bomb to 2,400 meters. The 100mm fired a 7.3 kg bomb to 3,000 meters while the 120mm battalion/regimental mortar a 15.8 kg bomb to 6,000 meters. It's not hard to see why the German's dumped their own 100mm mortar for the Russian 120mm.

Somewhat outside the above discussion are the larger modern weapons of 160mm and 240mm caliber. The former were developed by the Soviet's, Finland and Isreal (by way of Finland) and are really too large to be considered infantry weapons, usually being deployed by artillery units. The 240mm mortar was used in small numbers by the Soviet's throughout the Cold War and is definately an artillery weapon.

The modern mortars in use today function in bascially the same way as mortars did in the 1920's but improvements in materials and design allow them to achieve greater range and accuracy at reduced weight.

The British L16A1 81mm mortar set the standard for today's medium mortars when it was introduced in the late 1960's. Compared to the previous standard, the U.S. M1 81mm (Brandt copy) the L16A1 has greater range (5,600 meters vs. 3,000 meters), is much lighter (37.85 kg vs 61.7 kg) and fires ammunition which is much more lethal for the same weight. Other, newer designs have even improved on these impressive specs.

OK, its late and that's enough for now.




gotta differ ever so slightly from your thoughts on motars. I too thought the classic 81mm motars was it, till I was introduced to the 4.2". The 4.2 is good for a little over four miles, and is quite accurate (better than a 105).
BUT, here where all this sorta crumbles and technology takes over. Back in the day we used to use funny little charges attached near the fins on the round, while the Russians uses little discs that just snapped on the rear to propell that round. Charges could be set much faster with a Russian mortar than anything we had. Accuracey wise the Russian and the U.S. were both on par with each other. The samething holds true with a Russian 4.5" mortar. This system was so good that the last time I heard we'd changed over to it. We liked the Russian mortars so well that we used them all the time.
gary
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Posted: Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 10:34 PM UTC
That's a ton of information.

Here's my two cents, for inspiration.
Mortars in Mini.