This world is insane which makes it normal.

Before you trade with anyone, Here are a few preventive measures to take to make the trade deal goes smooth.

1. Both parties send a email to each other to verify the trade as a contract online.
2. Both parties have each others phone numbers and have called each other to verify the parties are true and it adds a lil more trust to each person of the trade.
3. Verify this person online- ask others if this person is lagite
4. Both parties can scan LIC. to send to each other if needed.
5. Both parties send emails to verify the trade is in the mail by using tracking, confirmation, insurance, Customs numbers
6. The party that requested the trade sends last when he or she has recieved the other parties end of the deal.

Fine tune this and stick this as a sticky!

P.S ANYONE GOT SOME GOOD ARMOR THEY WANT TO TRADE?

I would add that one should be sensitive to the number of post placed by the individual. For example, the petty thief who took my trade and never provided a return as specified had only 4 posts, an email address that no longer works and an unlisted phone number. I have been had, do not let it happen to you. Send me a PM and I will share this guy's name and address so you can avoid the same problem.
DJ

Another item for consideration. I got this from a friend. Send the other person a registered letter in which you provide three options. 1. send the kit you promised, 2. return the kits you received or 3. pay a specified amount for the kits. Add to your letter, the very plausible promise of pursuing legal action. You can report petty thief to local law enforcement. Some guys did that with a person out of Canada and apparently got some positive results. I hate a barrack thief and will pursue them to the gates of hell to get satisfaction.
DJ

I'm looking for a dragon wagon and Famo Do you have any?

Brian

Brian-- so am I. The guy received my two models in trade on June 4th for the Dragon Wagon. I am still waiting when he sends me the item, we can talk
DJ

Ok let me know what you get, I got ripped off for a Dragon Wagon and Famo earlier this year. If you get the Dragon Wagon let me know. Maybe we can make a deal. You gotta be real careful who you deal with. LOTS of scheisters and liars out there. E-mail me and I'll give you a list of people I have found who are not trustworthy.

Brian

Registered letters don't always work. I work for USPS. Quite a few registered/certified letters go unclaimed.

If the cheating party refuses the letter there's not much you can do on about it (the letter that is).

True, sad but true. But, I am not letting that SOB off the hook.

Dont think Id be scanning my license and sending that over the net....


Dave

One thing I'd want to point out, in response to one thing DJ mention, re: being sensitive to the other persons number of posts. I'm afraid that doesn't always work. One guy here on Armorama who turned out to be one of the biggest thieves you ever wouldn't want to meet had thousands of posts, over a number of years, was well respected, and was even a staff member here! I may be a little leery of trading with somebody on their first post, but just because a guy has been here a long time, etc, doesn't mean they aren't a ripoff artist.

As far as the original points I have to agree with Dave, I don't think I'd want to be sending my license over the net. Nor would I be a big fan of giving out my phone number. I really don't have any answer to how to stop somebody ripping people off before the fact. The only thing I can think of that will help is if Armorama gets a reputation that it's members leave no stone unturned hounding bad traders to the fullest extent of the law. If we here get a reputation like that maybe such scum will think twice about trying to rip any of us off.

The sad truth to this whole thing is that we are left to police ourselves for the most part. My club president is Postal Inspector for the PO here and he said they don't have the manpower or the time to chase down every person who rips someone off through an online trade or sale. They have bigger fish to chase,( drugs, terrorist, real criminals) that someone gaining a few models unjustly doesn't ruffle many feathers. And this comes from an ebay advocate and model builder. Just look at some of the big names finally caught and busted for the fraud. Jonsey from Michigan, a hand slap and a little time in jail. Richard Morgan from the UK, a hand slap and a don't do it again. Guess what? He is still getting people on the yahoo group sites. These guys got people for thousands. I know, I got took by both of them. $275.00 to Morgan and $125.00 to Jonsey. Hell, my last name is Jones and people run and hide when I post a trade for anything. Lucky for me several guys here did trade and I think everyone came out happy.
The point is, until there is some kind of agency set up to go after just this sort of thing, these guys will get away with it. How many kits did Mike Kalb make off with before he was outed? That is the whole thing. A guy can come on here, post 50 items for trade, get 30 trade offers and make off with 20 kits before anyone realizes they got took. And by then, its too late to warn others.
The suggestions below on what to be suspisious about came from another website. Some make good sense.

1. Watch the person who post trade or sale items and offers 3 or 4 of the same hard to find kits.
2. The one who has a list full of HTF kits.
3. The one whose list has offers you just can't pass up. ie- too good to be true.
4. Offers too many one sided trades in the other guys favor.( I'll give you 6 of my models to 2 of yours).
5. Seller has a list full of $20 or less models and doesn't offer multi- item deals. Ripping off 20 people for $20 each isn't going to get you much attention law wise. Of those 20 only 3 will formally complain. The other 17 don't bother or don't want to admit they got took.
6. Last stop before ebay. Same list turns up 2 weeks later.
7. Last but not least, public email addresses. Too easy to just disappear.

Whats the solution? Well, if its a name no one knows, ask the guy to send theirs first. I always try and send mine first. In fact thats what I ask the other guy to let me do. Sometimes they beat me to it( ED) but mostly they get the kit I sent and they send theirs. Ask for an ebay name. Most model builders have an ebay name. Check the feedback. Ask about the guy on the forum he is posting on. Never hurts to ask and if the guy has nothing to hide he won't mind. The best way to stop someone is to get other modelers involved. See if there is a club in his town. Send them an email. Possibly the guy is a member. Most clubs don't want a crook amongst them and will make the guy come clean and make good. Or, worse case, track the guy down at the next show close to his home and kneecap him. Mike Dunlap(aka Bad hombre) had alot of fun at other peoples expense online until a few guys confronted him at a local show.

Maybe someone with some clout should start an escrow type business. You send your trade kits to them, the other guy sends their kits and when the escrow guy has both parts of the trade, he sends them to the respective people. How much extra would it be worth to you to know your trade is being properly conducted? Hey, everyone laughed at the guy who started ebay at first, paypal wouldn't work, ect. ect. ect. Now look at them. It would take some work and some planning, but it could be a viable option if there is any question.

Wow, sorry for the long thread. There has to be an end to the problem of bad traders, but I don't think the answer is a quick one. Until then, the lowlifes will continue to prey on the unsuspecting.

JJ

JJ-- some great points to ponder. I especially like your suggestion that a honest broker gets the kits then sends them along to the respective parties. Interesting idea, lots of problems involved but it merits discussion. I am also an advocate of publishing a list of these thieves along with their addresses here so others can be advised before they enter into a trade situation. The list may also serve to scare these crooks from the site. Overall, I have traded on this forum for years without a problem and my recent trouble has simply outraged me. I am out the models but I want that SOB so badly I can taste it in my teeth. I hate a barracks thief.
thanks
DJ